• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Another head/cab thread. Trace Elliot 1x10

#21
If you had a 1/4" to Speak-on speaker cable and all things are equal, which end would you put where?

I've had someone express an opinion on that and I have no idea if it was covered in Electrical Engineering 101 at TalkBass Poly -Technical? I'm relying on you for guidance and value your input?
 
#22
ficelles said:
In sound reinforcement matched length cables are maybe important for time-aligned speakers but with the speed of electromagnetic waves in a cable being something like 2/3rds the speed of light I'm not sure how significant it would even then. Is @agedhorse around?

Personally I like matched cables purely because I am obsessive about such things. Matched even down to shade of the shielding and the connectors.
Click to expand...

IMHO the increased propagation delay through a longer cable is not significant when it comes to time/phase aligning your speakers. Sound travels ~1.13" or ~34.4424cm per ms. In contrast light travels ~300,000meters per ms (yes 300km). The signal passing through a speaker cable moves at close to the speed of light. So if you had a 300km cable, you would get ~1ms of delay. I am sure the resistance would be far more of a factor with a 300km cable.

Keeping the cables as short as possible makes them easier to deal with, but it also limits how far they reach. So consider how the cables will be used. If you only use the cables for your bass rig and it's always set up the same way, you can make the cables as short as possible, so they are easier to manage.

An observation: If run two stacked cabs and wanted cables that perfectly reach from the head to each cab, one cable would need to be longer than the other. I am anal, but nowhere near that bad. I would probably buy a pair of matching cables, at whatever length reaches the furthest cab, with about 1' of slop.

I have some older cables that are totally random. I believe they all have NL4 connectors, but some have two conductor cable and some have four conductor cable. I have no concerns with mixing and matching these cables on one amp.

I bought quite a few new cables from AudioPile NL413GA | NL4 Speakon equipped 13/4 Speaker Cable (3dcartstores.com). These are for a small PA system with stereo biamped mains and four monitors. The cable lengths I bought are 5', 15', and 30'. I typically use whichever ever cable provides the best physical fit., so there is less coiling to be done. The 5s are intended as a link through from subs to mains. The can also be used to link mains if I use two cabs per side...3' would be better, but not enough for me to justify spending more money. 30' is intended to get from the amp rack to the speakers. 15' is intended as a link between monitor cabs. 15' is actually a bit long, but not so long that they are huge hassle to deal with. Actually, you want a little slack to make adjustments. I also bought four NL4MMX couplers, so I can combine cables if I need more length.

In the past there have been instances where I used 20' and 100' on opposite sides of the stage. With that much variance I did wonder if it would impact SPL. Probably not enough to worry about. You probably don't want a 100' cable to use with your bass amp...very heavy, and a pain to coil and keep untangled.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PhatBottomBass1
#24
PhatBottomBass1 said:
So how do you feel about 1/4" to Speak-on and which end would you put where? :smug:

I have bought in to the myth that good cables make no difference because all wire is the same and as long as it works its good enough and justify color coding as irrelevant as long as I can remember which cable goes where before I throw the switch. :cigar:
Click to expand...


I use a 1/4" to speakON adapter. I tend to use speakON when I can, and use the adapter when it is required. The adapter goes where it is needed. If there is a choice of where to plug the 1/4", it means I don't need the adapter. I.E. I run either 1/4" to 1/4" inch or speakON to speakON.

The current carrying limitation with 1/4" is not the wire, it's actually the plug and mating connector. Ideally I believe they should be limited to about 300W or less.

1/4" cables can come unplugged and place a short on the output of your amp. In contrast, if someone trips over a speakON, it may cause your head or speaker to take a tumble.

If you use a 1/4" plug with a bridged amp, the sleeve of the plug presents a shorting hazard. Don't let it come in contact with the metal chassis of your amp. Also the sleeve presents a shock/electrocution hazard if you have a big enough amp. The reason for these issues is bridged amps have signal on both the + and - output terminals. This is called a differential output. With non-bridged amps, the - terminal is often at ground potential so it does not provide a shock or electrocution hazard. What you may not know is most class D amp operate permanently in bridge mode.


So for high power applications, most would consider speakON significantly superior. I used both, but try to keep in mind/mitigate potential hazards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Loring and PhatBottomBass1
#25
ficelles said:
As long as the cable shielding is precisely colour-matched, this is acceptable.
Click to expand...


I am guessing you would throw my old mismatched cables in the rubbish bin ;).

You would probably like the audiopile cables, since the have a matching label that indicates length.
SHRINK_DETAIL_800w.jpg
 
Last edited:
#28
...I feel the same way about "Strings" and why not play the least expensive set you can find and pay no attention to relative tone between the various manufacturers, materials or winding technics. Just keep boiling that set or better yet...just leave them on until they fall off!

Whatever works...! :thumbsup:
 
#30
PhatBottomBass1 said:
...I feel the same way about "Strings" and why not play the least expensive set you can find and pay no attention to relative tone between the various manufacturers, materials or winding technics. Just keep boiling that set or better yet...just leave them on until they fall off!

Whatever works...! :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Well if tone is indeed in the fingers then strings are merely a conduit and of little importance.

But this is not logical, as human fingers do not have significant electromagnetic properties.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Loring and PhatBottomBass1
#31
Flying B said:
Phatbottombass1, you didn't actually answer the question, why do you think the cables should be the same length?

Not trying to be snarky, genuinely interested in your reason.
Click to expand...

Not at all...I have a very well developed sense of humor...

I mentioned that this was what I was told years ago. I have no theases on the theoretical applications. Someone who knew more about it than I did said it was best. I have had no issues either keeping matched cables nor having had equipment issues to relate back to it. So, I accepted it was a good idea to pass on to OP.

The thing here is; someone always has to prove that though there is no real reason to say it's a bad idea. There is just no know reason to back it up definitively, so just going with it is not a good idea. Having worked in music retail. I would grab two matching cables of the same length and hand it to someone who either (a) has not requested otherwise, (b) is known to me to be a first-time buyer.

When dealing with the uninitiated it's better to help and leave everyone else to their own devices. I figure, the repair guy needs business, too.

I currently own:

2 x ProCo 12 GA. 3' SpeakOn to SpeakOn

1 X ProCo 12 GA. 3' SpeakOn to 1/4"

I have one sealed 8 Ohm 4x10" Reeves cabinet with a 1/4". I'm having that changed currently.

I also have 2 x Baer ML112 V2 with SpeakOn

I'm covered.

2 x 10' are the longest speaker cables I've ever owned.
 
#32
Prana Ferox said:
No, no, it's so they can be put away more quickly into a smaller bag.

At any of the cable lengths discussed, how long they are / differences between them are electrically irrelevant.
Click to expand...
Prana Ferox said:
No, no, it's so they can be put away more quickly into a smaller bag.

At any of the cable lengths discussed, how long they are / differences between them are electrically irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Your Honor, what’s grey and has a trunk, during a lightning storm?
 
#34
Hey OP, great pairing. I have run my (single) TE110 with at TH500 a few timea and it's a really great pairing! 2 of the 110 cabs will just be gravy!

While I hate to derail a completely valid and timely discussion :roflmao: about the speaker cable length, I'll just add this idea: please make sure the Speakon cables you buy have genuine Neutrik connectors. If you are handy with a knife and a screwdriver, you can actually make your own SpeakOn cables very easily, and last time I bought a batch the connectors could be had for about $3 each on Amazon, $4 at Sweetwater. I buy 12-2 (14-2 is fine as well) ProCo speaker cable at Sweetwater for about $1/foot, so a $30-50 store-bought cable can be made at home for $12-18!

Enjoy your new setup!
20210327_223043.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: BasturdBlaster, nonohmic, Loring and 2 others
#35
PhatBottomBass1 said:
I would also use the two speak-on connections straight off the amp, with the two cables, but it is totally cool to go one into the other cabinet, too. (The cables should be as short as possible and the same lengths.)
Click to expand...

Keeping as short as possible - Agree.

The same length does not make sense. If you stack 2 together and want neatness and less waste, the cables will have to be different lengths/ That's my setup. one is less than 2 and one is over 3 feet. I made them myself.

Electrically no difference. The PA guys that run those speaker arrays, do not use the same lengths.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Loring
#36
I'm going to leave the OP in the capable hands of those who wish to shave $6.00 per cable off and DIY and forgo a lifetime warranty with Sweetwater!

There's always a better way to get from here to there...except when you can't get there from here!

Adios!
 
#37
musicman556 said:
While I hate to derail a completely valid and timely discussion :roflmao: about the speaker cable length, I'll just add this idea: please make sure the Speakon cables you buy have genuine Neutrik connectors. If you are handy with a knife and a screwdriver, you can actually make your own SpeakOn cables very easily, and last time I bought a batch the connectors could be had for about $3 each on Amazon, $4 at Sweetwater. I buy 12-2 (14-2 is fine as well) ProCo speaker cable at Sweetwater for about $1/foot, so a $30-50 store-bought cable can be made at home for $12-18!
Click to expand...

A serious note on making up Speakon cables - under no circumstances tin the cable ends with solder as the compression connectors are angled and will push the tinned end out as you tighten the screw. Bare wires is what those compression connectors are designed for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Loring
#40
ficelles said:
In sound reinforcement matched length cables are maybe important for time-aligned speakers but with the speed of electromagnetic waves in a cable being something like 2/3rds the speed of light I'm not sure how significant it would even then. Is @agedhorse around?
Click to expand...

You can calculate the difference in time alignment from mismatched speaker lengths, but here's a rule of thumb to consider: the speed of light is about a million times the speed of sound. For every foot of extra speaker cable, if you want to offset that time delay, you can to offset (backwards) the speaker with the shorter cable by 12 millionths of an inch.

Or maybe just consider the error small and not worry about it.

I'm a Physicist (which is why I calculate things like this some times. And an Engineer, which means I can easily ignore things that aren't significant. Like this.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back