Another Red Flag On The Ampeg PF-500.....

[KJung]

I would have to agree with this as well. My PF-500 is a practice rig. My main rig is an SVP-Pro/power amp. My PF is used so I don't have to drag my rack around all the time. It sucks there have been some issues, part of my point I guess is that some people expect too much out of a micro. I don't have to push mine at all. And no matter what rig I use I always carry my BDDI with me for back-up. Why, cause any rig can fail.

Again, a well designed micro will perform as well as any amp. Why would you think the 'size' of an amp has anything to do with anything. I push the heck out of my 'micro's, and have for over 20 years. Zero issue and I notice absolutely NO difference in a well designed class D and/or SMPS amp and any other class of amp. There is just as much variation in tone and performance across micro amps as there is across heavy transformer amps or tube amps or whatever.

This just seems like a bad one. This 'myth' that a well designed micro amp is not able to compete with a heavier amp of similar wattage is garbage.

This is simply what seems to be a poorly engineered product. It can happen with products of any weight.

Play a GKMB800 or a TecAmp Puma900 or an Aguilar TH500 or a Glockenklang Blue Soul, etc, etc. and then we can continue the discussion about 'pushing a micro amp'

 

[hennessybass]

Asking to use the full rated wattage should never be expecting too much. Either a product lives up to its specs or not. I don't care if the amp is a giant brick or a micro-head, if it says it will deliver 500 watts, it better well deliver 500 watts reliably, or it is a bad product, plain and simple.

Fat Steve is right on about what to expect. I will just add that it is not unreasonable to expect an amp to NOT fail out of the box,,, or even a few years out of the box.

I also don't think it is unreasonable for a company to back up their products when they break, warranty or no warranty. Some of these Ampeg products obviously have issues, and IMO for Hodgy to come on here and say... " Find someone to sell you a rev J board and put it in yourself " is not cool.

Again... not trying to bash Ampeg or Hodgy, but if I get to vote with my money, I will not be pulling the lever for some of the current Ampeg products.

 

[B-string]

I hear what you guys are saying about current. And after looking at my gear again today after I had some time to decompress and lose some of the frustration from last night (not to mention I woke up this morning to a flat tire- but I digress about my terrible string of luck), it looks like I also have a bad volume pot on my bass. Apparently little movements have been causing the signal to cut from my bass. So that explains why I was having sound issues with both amps and could've been a big part of my sound cutting. However, the PF800 still DID flash its fault light and was cutting and coming back when I was adjusting volume and gain on it, so it was most likely a combination of my bass AND the PF cutting. Regardless, after all these discussions of the PFs failing, and the combination of last night's show, I don't think I can trust the amp. I bought it to be a reliable backup, and as said above, I will only be worried about its performance from here on out and feel the need to back up my back up. Not a great solution.

Okay the "cutting out" was from the bass not the PF-800. Still need to know if the PF-800 goes into fault with known good power to it. I still suspect venue power over amp failure, I might hazard a guess that the abnormal noise from the faulty instrument volume pot might trigger the fault detector? Class D audio is new tech to instrument amplification and can't see a faulty instrument pot being considered in the design process?
Still hoping the PF-800 is a stable platform and you just had a fluke experience.

 

[cableguy]

Again, a well designed micro will perform as well as any amp. Why would you think the 'size' of an amp has anything to do with anything. I push the heck out of my 'micro's, and have for over 20 years. Zero issue and I notice absolutely NO difference in a well designed class D and/or SMPS amp and any other class of amp. There is just as much variation in tone and performance across micro amps as there is across heavy transformer amps or tube amps or whatever.

This just seems like a bad one. This 'myth' that a well designed micro amp is not able to compete with a heavier amp of similar wattage is garbage.

This is simply what seems to be a poorly engineered product. It can happen with products of any weight.

Play a GKMB800 or a TecAmp Puma900 or an Aguilar TH500 or a Glockenklang Blue Soul, etc, etc. and then we can continue the discussion about 'pushing a micro amp'

I guess I use my amps like my cars. I can drive it at max RPM but I don't. But I get where you're coming from. I have played the TH & the MB500. Great amps, just more than I wanted to spend at the time. I bought my PF used/cheap and haven't had any issues. Not saying that other haven't. I'm also not saying that Loud hasn't had issues with their dealing with the problem. I was saying there could be some operator error involved and if you have to really, really push your amp all the time, you need a more powerful amp. That's all.

 

[KJung]

I guess I use my amps like my cars. I can drive it at max RPM but I don't. But I get where you're coming from. I have played the TH & the MB500. Great amps, just more than I wanted to spend at the time. I bought my PF used/cheap and haven't had any issues. Not saying that other haven't. I'm also not saying that Loud hasn't had issues with their dealing with the problem. I was saying there could be some operator error involved and if you have to really, really push your amp all the time, you need a more powerful amp. That's all.

+1 Didn't mean to chew on you. I too make sure I have an amp with the oomph and wattage to not have to be pushed. You can get that in any topology.

Again, not hammering so much on Ampeg as making sure people don't think the problem they are having with this one product has ANYTHING to do with the category of micro amps or class D/SMPS power. It does not. Quite frankly, the PF500 is quite an amazing sounding amp for the money. They just need to fix this issue, which is a really bad issue. Once they do, I think all will be well. It seems to be a nice sounding product at its price point (from the very little time I spent with one a while back).

Again, I would not throw the baby out with the bathwater. This 'shut down when you run the gain too high' is totally and completely unique to this particular amp.

 

[tekhedd]

I will be the first to say that I am an advocate for the PF500, but I will say that I think that the rev. C units should've been recalled due to the weaknesses that were addressed by Feb. 2012. Regardless it always suck to have a product die (in or out of warrantee).

And this is why I don't use Ampeg at all. It's not a great amp if it's not backed by a great company. (Yes, the people at Ampeg/Loud all seem very nice, but if they're not authorized to do anything, it doesn't really help.)

Again, I would not throw the baby out with the bathwater. This 'shut down when you run the gain too high' is totally and completely unique to this particular amp.

This is true. Other amps had completely different problems. For example, my SVT-1000 had the problem of "can't drive a reactive load". Speaking of "I don't drive my car at max RPM"... well, the 1000 was advertised as having this awesome limiter so that you *could* drive it at max RPM. Go look up the literature for that amp, it brags endlessly about that...but that of course didn't work if you chose the wrong speaker cab. For example, my av810 was apparently a wrong choice. In the end, I discovered that there's no factory support because as far as they were concerned it wasn't actually broken. Sold it at a huge loss.

That's just how Ampeg rolls. Usually they're great, but sometimes you get "lucky" and wind up with one of their lemons. Caveat Emptor.

So, really, I do agree with you. I just don't see it as a positive.

 

[arai]

It continues to amaze me that an amp would shut down by setting the knobs a certain way. I never heard of this with ANY other amp. That is NOT user error, that is poor design. Makes no sense whatsoever.

A well designed limiter will, well, limit no matter how the knobs are set, or how loud the amp is played.

+1.

I have been able to run the gain as high as I have liked on all the amps I have owned over the years with no problems

 

[will33]

I suppose it's safe to assume Ampeg is the only source for these boards and they cost $310 right? This isn't like some ICEpower thing?

The guy who's amp I had here has some weird emotional attachment to it and wants to know if we can shop around for a better deal on a board. I think he just wants to justify his original purchase. Paid I think $600-some odd dollars for the pf500 and 210 cab used, which to me seems kinda nuts considering what they cost new, but I'm cheap and always wait for a deal that's at least one better than average.

I'm trying to at least sway him towards a new pf350 with warranty, which would cost about the same as a circuit board for his. It seems most of the reported problems are with the 500's.

 

[will33]

I agree that the only thing that should happen from setting the gain way high is it might sound bad or start blowing speakers if you don't have enough of the hooked up.

It should only go into protect mode if it really needs to save itself, like from a short on the outputs, too low impedance, DC on the outputs, bad power coming in, etc.

Them blaming these faults on the user for turning the amp up is just lame.

 

[P-oddz]

Okay the "cutting out" was from the bass not the PF-800. Still need to know if the PF-800 goes into fault with known good power to it. I still suspect venue power over amp failure, I might hazard a guess that the abnormal noise from the faulty instrument volume pot might trigger the fault detector? Class D audio is new tech to instrument amplification and can't see a faulty instrument pot being considered in the design process?
Still hoping the PF-800 is a stable platform and you just had a fluke experience.

Not sure. Obviously it's difficult to diagnose gear when you're mid-set and trying to hide your internal panic while keeping the show going. In cutting out, I did tweak the volume and gain down on the amp and was getting signal to come back. Fluke/really just the bass... not sure(?) I also tried turning the amp on and off in between the signal cutting to see if I could cool it for a second or reset it and that may have been when I got the fault light and decided to call it quits on the amp/find a different stage alternative. I've seen around here that a reset on the amp can trigger a fault light(?).

Regardless, the amp has stayed at the practice space since Saturday night, as I needed to make sure my other backup gear was in order for a set on the radio I have tonight. I'm now sort of on the fence about returning the amp right away (probably against my better judgment). I feel like I should try it more to see if it WAS just a fluke, or in reality just my bass that was triggering everything. I really want to like this amp at its price and wattage. I don't really have anything else in mind that fits the bill of solid state "reliability" (hopefully) that's going to push more than 350W into an 8ohm load.

 

[KJung]

This is true. Other amps had completely different problems. For example, my SVT-1000 had the problem of "can't drive a reactive load". Speaking of "I don't drive my car at max RPM"... well, the 1000 was advertised as having this awesome limiter so that you *could* drive it at max RPM. Go look up the literature for that amp, it brags endlessly about that...but that of course didn't work if you chose the wrong speaker cab. For example, my av810 was apparently a wrong choice. In the end, I discovered that there's no factory support because as far as they were concerned it wasn't actually broken. Sold it at a huge loss.

That's just how Ampeg rolls. Usually they're great, but sometimes you get "lucky" and wind up with one of their lemons. Caveat Emptor.

So, really, I do agree with you. I just don't see it as a positive.

Don't get me wrong. I've been pretty much unimpressed with any amp Ampeg has made other than the classic SVT's. Growing up in St. Louis, I know all the messes with the solid state Ampegs that went on for years at SLM... just horrible stuff IMO and IME. And their first stab at class D, those simply awful Portabass products, sounded terrible for the most part (although they didn't shut down).

 

[MrCool84]

Everything posted on this thread in the last 3 hrs or so is pretty damn righteous.

 

[Passinwind]

This isn't like some ICEpower thing?

Nope, not that it would really matter anyway.

 

[JimmyM]

+1 Didn't mean to chew on you. I too make sure I have an amp with the oomph and wattage to not have to be pushed. You can get that in any topology.

Again, not hammering so much on Ampeg as making sure people don't think the problem they are having with this one product has ANYTHING to do with the category of micro amps or class D/SMPS power. It does not. Quite frankly, the PF500 is quite an amazing sounding amp for the money. They just need to fix this issue, which is a really bad issue. Once they do, I think all will be well. It seems to be a nice sounding product at its price point (from the very little time I spent with one a while back).

Again, I would not throw the baby out with the bathwater. This 'shut down when you run the gain too high' is totally and completely unique to this particular amp.

I have never had a shutdown on any PF amp when I cranked the gain up all the way. And I've played many of them and done just that.

 

[KJung]

I have never had a shutdown on any PF amp when I cranked the gain up all the way. And I've played many of them and done just that.

But so many others have (and there have even been posts of Loud service and support saying 'don't turn them up' posted on TB). A design or manufacturing issue does not ever mean 100% failure rate. Come on dude!

The key here is, some seem to think the issues with this amp are 'user error'. Other than blowing a driver by turning an amp all the way up with the bass cranked, there really is no such thing as user error other than dropping the amp from the roof of a 3 story building.

 

[will33]

Nope, not that it would really matter anyway.

Figured as much.

I probably couldn't make one work anyway. I just know there's a lot of different amps that use those power modules, but they're all incorporated into the design in different ways and most of it is over my head.

 

[rocksmoot]

It would help my confidence in Ampeg if it made some kind of statement about all this. The company's stubborn silence on what has clearly been an ongoing PR trainwreck is pretty puzzling to me. Even if the number of failures is actually below industry quality standards, a simple Google search reveals the growing perception that the PF line of amps is unreliable and poorly designed. Whether that is the case or not, to see a company simply ignore the existence of that perception is a real head scratcher.

 

[B-string]

Not sure. Obviously it's difficult to diagnose gear when you're mid-set and trying to hide your internal panic while keeping the show going. In cutting out, I did tweak the volume and gain down on the amp and was getting signal to come back. Fluke/really just the bass... not sure(?) I also tried turning the amp on and off in between the signal cutting to see if I could cool it for a second or reset it and that may have been when I got the fault light and decided to call it quits on the amp/find a different stage alternative. I've seen around here that a reset on the amp can trigger a fault light(?).

Regardless, the amp has stayed at the practice space since Saturday night, as I needed to make sure my other backup gear was in order for a set on the radio I have tonight. I'm now sort of on the fence about returning the amp right away (probably against my better judgment). I feel like I should try it more to see if it WAS just a fluke, or in reality just my bass that was triggering everything. I really want to like this amp at its price and wattage. I don't really have anything else in mind that fits the bill of solid state "reliability" (hopefully) that's going to push more than 350W into an 8ohm load.

Understand I am not an Ampeg junkie though have been in the past. I'm looking at this more from an engineering standpoint. There are micros out there that will push over 350 watts easy @ 8ohm loads.
The question to ask yourself is if you had never heard of any cut-outs or shutdowns with the PF line, would you be so quick to dismiss the sound you like? I believe the answer to be that you would make sure you really did have a problem before getting so nervous about the amp's reliability.

 

[B-string]

Figured as much.

I probably couldn't make one work anyway. I just know there's a lot of different amps that use those power modules, but they're all incorporated into the design in different ways and most of it is over my head.

If it used a standard ICE or B&O module you would surely see it inside. While they may have incorporated one on their own board (under licence agreements) it would likely be different enough to not successfully just dodge a standard module in.

 

[will33]

It would help my confidence in Ampeg if it made some kind of statement about all this. The company's stubborn silence on what has clearly been an ongoing PR trainwreck is pretty puzzling to me. Even if the number of failures is actually below industry quality standards, a simple Google search reveals the growing perception that the PF line of amps is unreliable and poorly designed. Whether that is the case or not, to see a company simply ignore the existence of that perception is a real head scratcher.

They did make a statement about it. They just said, "meh....don't turn it up".

Pretty much called their customers stupid for cranking up an Ampeg. Now that's the real head-scratcher.