Another Red Flag On The Ampeg PF-500.....

[P-oddz]

Understand I am not an Ampeg junkie though have been in the past. I'm looking at this more from an engineering standpoint. There are micros out there that will push over 350 watts easy @ 8ohm loads.
The question to ask yourself is if you had never heard of any cut-outs or shutdowns with the PF line, would you be so quick to dismiss the sound you like? I believe the answer to be that you would make sure you really did have a problem before getting so nervous about the amp's reliability.

Absolutely - I understand that as well, and was really trying to put the reliability issue aside until my own personal experience proved the amp reliable or not. I have an Orange tube head that has been in and out of the shop for the past two months, and my gear reliability is making me really paranoid these days - maybe more so than necessary, and maybe more so than the fluke of my bass cutting out deserves to go to the Ampeg. I think I'll still give it some practices and some heavy work (where I'm still within store-return-time-frame) to make a real decision on keeping it or not.

 

[will33]

Absolutely - I understand that as well, and was really trying to put the reliability issue aside until my own personal experience proved the amp reliable or not. I have an Orange tube head that has been in and out of the shop for the past two months, and my gear reliability is making me really paranoid these days - maybe more so than necessary, and maybe more so than the fluke of my bass cutting out deserves to go to the Ampeg. I think I'll still give it some practices and some heavy work (where I'm still within store-return-time-frame) to make a real decision on keeping it or not.

If it were me, I'd be eliminating other possible causes and trying to make that thing cut out as hard as I could while I was still within the return grace period.

 

[Bitterdale]

Not sure. Obviously it's difficult to diagnose gear when you're mid-set and trying to hide your internal panic while keeping the show going. In cutting out, I did tweak the volume and gain down on the amp and was getting signal to come back. Fluke/really just the bass... not sure(?) I also tried turning the amp on and off in between the signal cutting to see if I could cool it for a second or reset it and that may have been when I got the fault light and decided to call it quits on the amp/find a different stage alternative. I've seen around here that a reset on the amp can trigger a fault light(?).

Are you aware that the PF fault light comes on every time it powers up?

 

[AMJBASS]

The limiter was just making it sound bad. IMO I believe it was going into protect mode because the gain was way too high and was clipping the amp badly. But my GK will sound badly if I overdrive the input that much too. SS amps just don't overdrive as sweet as tubes, again IMO.

Aguilar Tone Hammer overdrive is quite awesome. Its a smooth breakup.

There is NO reason the amp should go into protect mode because of gain being too high. That is one of the issues that a lot of us have with these amps(including that ridiculous statement from Ampeg regarding user error). In all honesty, Ampeg has made some excellent products in the past, this one just has too many issues. They do sound very good however.

 

[B-string]

Absolutely - I understand that as well, and was really trying to put the reliability issue aside until my own personal experience proved the amp reliable or not. I have an Orange tube head that has been in and out of the shop for the past two months, and my gear reliability is making me really paranoid these days - maybe more so than necessary, and maybe more so than the fluke of my bass cutting out deserves to go to the Ampeg. I think I'll still give it some practices and some heavy work (where I'm still within store-return-time-frame) to make a real decision on keeping it or not.

Sounds like you are getting a good handle on it now. Equipment failures can understandably make you gun shy. But keep in mind that often the wrong thing can get blamed, that only leads to more frustration and worry.

 

[P-oddz]

Are you aware that the PF fault light comes on every time it powers up?

I actually was not aware, until reading through some more threads yesterday. I hadn't noticed it while powering it up the two other times I had used it.

If it were me, I'd be eliminating other possible causes and trying to make that thing cut out as hard as I could while I was still within the return grace period.

I believe that is what I will do.

 

[will33]

If it used a standard ICE or B&O module you would surely see it inside. While they may have incorporated one on their own board (under licence agreements) it would likely be different enough to not successfully just dodge a standard module in.

I gave the amp back to the guy and told him what our options are so I don't have it in front of me anymore, but I think I put up some gut pics of it in some other pf500 problem thread.

I'm not going to try to fit some different power module in there, I'll just screw that up. Was just wondering on the off chance that the board may be some sourced part you could get from someplace other than Ampeg to maybe find a better price but it's not.

IMO, dude just needs to get a pf350, or even a 3Pro and forget about the whole fliptop thing. I have to sleep at night and I'm not even comfortable telling him to put his money into a current rev. 500 board. We don't know if it'll last him 5 years or 5 minutes, and I doubt they'll warranty a circuit board that some user, non-tech, put in themselves.

 

[B-string]

I gave the amp back to the guy and told him what our options are so I don't have it in front of me anymore, but I think I put up some gut pics of it in some other pf500 problem thread.

I'm not going to try to fit some different power module in there, I'll just screw that up. Was just wondering on the off chance that the board may be some sourced part you could get from someplace other than Ampeg to maybe find a better price but it's not.

IMO, dude just needs to get a pf350, or even a 3Pro and forget about the whole fliptop thing. I have to sleep at night and I'm not even comfortable telling him to put his money into a current rev. 500 board. We don't know if it'll last him 5 years or 5 minutes, and I doubt they'll warranty a circuit board that some user, non-tech, put in themselves.

IMHO you are doing the right thing by him. If that matters any?

 

[will33]

If the guy were to buy a pf350..........

I wonder if I could put that power board in the 500 and mate it to that preamp so he could still have the mid selector switch and stuff the 350 doesn't have. I'd rather do that than buy an actual 500 board.

I bet they make them interchangeable like that to make manufacturing cheaper.

 

[B-string]

Hard to say, I would want schematics on both without a working PF-500 to do voltage checks. All it takes is one powered pin difference between them to start a BBQ?

 

[will33]

Hard to say, I would want schematics on both without a working PF-500 to do voltage checks. All it takes is one powered pin difference between them to start a BBQ?

Good point.

So....put the bbq'd board back in the 350, exchange it under warranty, and leave the new one alone.

 

[Remus_Redbone]

Oh no, say it ain't so! I got a PF800 just because of all the issues with the 500's and no one had reported any problems with the 800. I guess it had to happen sooner or later.

I've gigged with my PF800 three times and use it in weekly rehearsals. I run it through a GK 410 NEO cab which is a truly beautiful pairing. No issues yet and the sound is everything I'd hoped it would be and more. But I have a Rumble 350 head sitting next to it on hot standby. Of course the Rumble's not in the same league soundwise, but it will do the job in case of a catastrophe. I bought it as a cheap non-Ampeg backup in case the 800 starts getting catty on me. I still have hopes that the PF800 will be a lifetime amp for me, but maybe that's just a bit too much optimism.

I gotta say, this little Rumble head has been a workhorse for me. Too bad it sounds like a dirty horseblanket has been thrown over the speakers compared to the PF800.

Sorry your 800 cut out on you, and sorry about your aborted gig, it's embarrassing and a bit humiliating when gear failure gets in the way of an engagement, paid or otherwise. Here's hoping the warranty work fixes you up.

I would also be keeping an extra amp on hand if I purchased one of the Ampeg PF series amps. I want the tone and the features available with the PF series at their price points, but I don't want to carry two amps to every gig or rehearsal. At this point, I would be afraid not to and that is what has steered me away from a PF purchase, at least for a while.

As for the sources of information regarding PF series failures; I've seen as much or more information outside TB about failures as I've seen on TB. Here on TB, I see discussions about failures. On supplier sites, I see reviews with a percentage of those reviews indicating a failure or two failures. The worst, however, was here on TB, where one member posted he or she had four failures in a two month period during '12. That's not just poor QC letting a defective unit slip out occasionally.

I'm not anti Ampeg, I have one Ampeg amp & cabinet set that's 43 years old and another Ampeg amp/cab that is around 23 years old. I don't want to purchase a PF series amp & feel like I have to keep dragging that old stuff along with me as back up. It has put in its time and needs to be retired.

 

[will33]

IF, the guy is willing to try it, we could just get one at the Guitar Center here locally and exchange it the next day if need be. It's not like some dufus that works there is going to take the amp apart, they'll just see that it doesn't work and exchange it for a new one.


If it turns out to be a workable solution it could solve some peoples problems. If you shop around you could likely find a whole 350 amp for a little bit less than a 500 circuit board and be able to keep the extra features of the 500 preamp.

The power difference is only enough to be worth about one decibel. The difference in headroom really isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.

350 working watts will be a whole lot louder than 500 silent ones.

 

[boristhespider9]

I bought the PF500 and the 1x15 cab with intent to add the 4x10 cab.

I thought it really looked nice. However, overall, the entire rig seemed "shaky" to me. The head was (a) a bit cheap feeling and (b) heavy for a "small" head. The cab did not seem roadworthy to me, especially (a) without side handles; (b) internal access for the "flip" feature (my head didn't attach to the cab correctly anyway); and (c) the small and unsteady casters.

I was disappointed as I wanted to like the rig. It's just too "in-between" IMO. Not quite a classic Ampeg and not a solid modern interpretation either.

I returned it and went with Markbass. My ears and back are much happier. I also play my MB rig with confidence about its reliability.

 

[Russell L]

I bought the PF500 and the 1x15 cab with intent to add the 4x10 cab.

I thought it really looked nice. However, overall, the entire rig seemed "shaky" to me. The head was (a) a bit cheap feeling and (b) heavy for a "small" head. The cab did not seem roadworthy to me, especially (a) without side handles; (b) internal access for the "flip" feature (my head didn't attach to the cab correctly anyway); and (c) the small and unsteady casters.

I was disappointed as I wanted to like the rig. It's just too "in-between" IMO. Not quite a classic Ampeg and not a solid modern interpretation either.

I returned it and went with Markbass. My ears and back are much happier. I also play my MB rig with confidence about its reliability.

So do I.

And folks wanna gripe about Markbass repair issues? This Ampeg debacle is all worse, IMO.

 

[Bowe]

With all the postings today here are some items to consider,
1) The main board contains the power supply, power amp and all the protection circuitry.
2) The board is probably entirely an in-house design (missing some very notable ICEpower signature elements)
3) The PF350 has a different size chassis so I would doubt if the mount holes line up
4) If the gain is cranked the distortion is your basic overdriven TL072 so when pushed it is nasty in every wrong way but a bit ain't bad
5) The front end pre-amp (before gain and compression) is fairly easy to clip (a pair of servo-biased J-FETs) with the only indication being audible distortion (at least it sounds better than the op-amp crash)

I think I will run an overdriven signal test on the amp to see if the pass band of the amp changes, could mean some interesting output responses if it does. If I still had my dummy loads I could test for input supply fade on output peaking - that could very easily cause a cutout if it drops low enough and could look like an amp fault. The supply tolerance specs (100-120 USA) are a bit tighter than average (90-140 USA) for an SMPS (at least where I am it's 200-240 so I may have a hard time ever making it cutout).

I still think that the engineers at LOUD made great strides in the reliability with rev. D (10-2011) and rev. E (02-2012), the following revs addressed other issues and several were supplier or non-failure related changes. From what I've read the vast majority of the failed units published were bought in the 1st year of release (rev. C) and the later ones seem to have come from outlets that had old stocks, I have not heard (or read) of any failures in a rev. E or higher unit, yet.

I am also no fan of the original owner warrantee but that is legal agreement of limited liability one enters when buying a piece of gear.

 

[will33]

@ Bowe....

Regarding the power supply tolerance. There are plenty of homes and businesses around here who's circuits run 123 and even up close to 126 or even 7 on some circuits. Could this be causing the amp to see some faults and if so, why only the 500 and not so much the other models?

It could explain some of the cutting out/protect circuit issues.

Still wouldn't explain these where the fault light just stays on and they never work again though.

The 100-120 volt thing is a pretty low tolerance on the high side for a lot of places wall outlets.

 

[Eight_Stringer]

Bowe, nice to read your posts, your the type of guy i like being next to on jobs that matter, cool head, grin. User posts here and tech posts included, there is no free lunch these modern electronic times. Users want features, manufactures meet those needs, and the technology is modern. Repair is not what it once was, speaking for myself, over 40 years in electronics, design and service, the modern age brings modern issues for service and or repair. For those of you that use modern and think old principles still apply, you will lead a disappointed life, in my view.

How long do you think these modern designed amps are going to last? With RoHS and all manner of modern component usable life expectancy criteria, 3-5 years and they are done. If you want old time values use old time equipment, if you want modern, accept modern issues. The problem starts when the two are interchanged, Ampeg lives this conundrum each day, a managed outcome, not a best outcome.... based on users expectations of all things to all people all of the time.

Have to love Jimmy's comment, "mines fine"... no problem here..... gee i feel better already Jimmy... must be me...

 

[will33]

My neighbor and his pf so far have a failure rate of 100% and the best I could do is bring that down to 50% at least temporarily.

Funny, but somebody elses amp working doesn't actually help this guy.

 

[Biggbass]

The big downside to all of this is that Ampeg is only hurting themselves in the long run.
It's a shame a company that big won't stand behind a product that they know was designed to be flawed. They've made their money on the sales more than enough times over. But day by day they are losing current and future customers. Perhaps they will eventually realize the power of the internet and word of mouth advertising, which in this case, is all negative, and stand behind their products. The PF line is a good idea...probably on paper. But in reality it may have turned out to be the Edsel for Ampeg. If it was a faulty Toyota, there would be a nationwide recall.
Ampeg should do the same. It may cost them up front, but in the long run they'd make tons of money from doing so. Sounds like someone at Ampeg should have been fired long ago and replaced with an individual who takes customer service more seriously.