Another Shooting

[Southpaw5]

So Zimmerman must go down for these sins of the past?
Do we apply this logic to every incident involving a black person and a white person?

This guy has the same color as every exalted cyclops the klan ever had, so of course he'd be living for the moment he could shoot a black kid in his neighborhood?

Some black folks have done some terrible things in the past (same can be said of every race/ethnic group). Should I heap the responsibility for all those things on every black person I meet? Might that be a little racist? Or forget about race... just plain wrong? Just asking.....

And finally, do we try and convict this man based on information the media serves up? And which media? The local news? Fox? Msnbc? Publications of the white ayran resistance? or of the black panthers?

So far, all the evidence comes from sources with the primary goal of selling advertising, not accurately reporting fact. Yet APPARENTLY many of you, in fact hundreds of thousands of people, (based on the same unreliable sources cited above) have Zimmerman tried and convicted, based on media reports... Again, sources which have the primary goal of selling advertising, which is not always compatible with telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

I've read a few articles about this incident, and they range in tone from "vigilante white cop wanna-be shoots unarmed black teen who was only getting skittles for his little brother" to "Neighborhood watch captain shoots teen after altercation".

I think there was probably bad judgement on both parties. Zimmerman was getting his butt kicked (I completely discount the size difference, I've seen plenty of little guys kick the crap out of larger guys). Zimmerman shot the guy who was kicking his ass. I probably wouldn't have done what Zimmerman did leading up to that point, but if I'm getting my ass kicked, I'm not going to assume they guy is going to lay off. I'm going to assume he's trying to hurt me bad or kill me, and if I've got a gun, I'm shooting him and minimizing the damage he does to me.

If Martin had a gun and Zimmerman didn't, it would probably have gone down the other way and Zimmerman would be dead and we'd have people screaming that Martin was guilty of murder and he should be arrested and other people screaming that Zimmerman was a racist and Martin was an innocent kid with a gun fighting a white racist.

Bottom line, there's a lot of judgement being passed. What's your source of evidence? Would you bet your life on it? Many of you seem to be willing to bet Zimmerman's life on it.

Zimmerman is Latino, not white. nice rant though

 

[Relic]

Zimmerman is Latino, not white. nice rant though

Zimmerman is half-Latino.
And although I'm waiting for more to come out before passing judgement, my gut feeling is that this thing WAS racially motivated. We'll see

 

[Southpaw5]

Zimmerman is half-Latino.
And although I'm waiting for more to come out before passing judgement, my gut feeling is that this thing WAS racially motivated. We'll see

Still, he's multiracial, not White, and I too feel this was most likely racially motivated

 

[macaroni tony]

Zimmerman is half-Latino.
And although I'm waiting for more to come out before passing judgement, my gut feeling is that this thing WAS racially motivated. We'll see

+1.

My biggest issue with this is that it looks like the PD all but shrugged their shoulders and walked away

...OK this is hyperbole, of course, but you catch my drift

 

[aborgman]

Surely someone who is in a vehicle tailing after you while you're on foot, then getting out and chasing you (if that's what happened) might reasonably lead you to perceive imminent violence; so, if those turn out to be facts, surely we must conclude that Martin was justified in any action he took at that point?

Legally justified under Florida law? Absolutely.

Funny thing is - as I read the law - they BOTH could be legally ok. It's a rather goofy law.

What is Martin's side, as distinct from the truth? He can't advocate any position - he's dead. Whatever happened to him IS the truth.

Whatever happened to him IS the truth. Whatever story is/has been told about that by his family, the police, the media, and/or others won't necessarily be the truth.

 

[aborgman]

The problem that I see is that it would be easy to conclude that BOTH parties in many altercations could have reason to perceive imminent violence directed against them - and so BOTH would be justified in killing the other. This particular law seems not too well thought out.

As far as I read the law in Florida - BOTH could be justified in killing the other.

 

[aborgman]

I think this thread would stil be long because there are a number of unanswered questions lingering and there's an apparent tragedy not matter what the color of the dead teen and the color of the person that shot him. We have a guy with a gun in a car calling 911 to report someone "suspicious" but we don't know what the "suspicion" is. We have the same guy with a gun suddenly outside of his car and fighting with someone he's been following who doesn't have a gun and is much smaller than him who he winds up shooting in the chest and is not arrested. That;s gong to raise questions no matter what the racial makeup.

Absolutely.


There are a lot of strange things in every version of this story so far, and lots of unanswered questions as to what exactly went down (and why).

 

[EBodious]

So far, all the evidence comes from sources with the primary goal of selling advertising, not accurately reporting fact...Again, sources which have the primary goal of selling advertising, which is not always compatible with telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


I think there was probably bad judgement on both parties. Zimmerman was getting his butt kicked (I completely discount the size difference, I've seen plenty of little guys kick the crap out of larger guys). Zimmerman shot the guy who was kicking his ass. I probably wouldn't have done what Zimmerman did leading up to that point, but if I'm getting my ass kicked, I'm not going to assume they guy is going to lay off. I'm going to assume he's trying to hurt me bad or kill me, and if I've got a gun, I'm shooting him and minimizing the damage he does to me.



Bottom line, there's a lot of judgement being passed. What's your source of evidence? Would you bet your life on it? Many of you seem to be willing to bet Zimmerman's life on it.

ummm, what is your source for believing zimmerman was 'getting his butt kicked?' according to the sources that you have defined as unreliable, he was bleeding from the nose and back of his head and had grass stains on his shirt. i wouldn't call that a butt kicking, but more importantly, by your own accounting we have zero reliable knowledge so how can you comment at all on the event?

i believe doc cheese was explaining why these kind of stories are important to him and thus, why he posts them. you are as free as the rest of us to post your opinions. however (unless i am mis-reading your post) your opinion seems to be that you have nothing to post.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

So Zimmerman must go down for these sins of the past?
Do we apply this logic to every incident involving a black person and a white person?

This guy has the same color as every exalted cyclops the klan ever had, so of course he'd be living for the moment he could shoot a black kid in his neighborhood?

Some black folks have done some terrible things in the past (same can be said of every race/ethnic group). Should I heap the responsibility for all those things on every black person I meet? Might that be a little racist? Or forget about race... just plain wrong? Just asking.....

And finally, do we try and convict this man based on information the media serves up? And which media? The local news? Fox? Msnbc? Publications of the white ayran resistance? or of the black panthers?

So far, all the evidence comes from sources with the primary goal of selling advertising, not accurately reporting fact. Yet APPARENTLY many of you, in fact hundreds of thousands of people, (based on the same unreliable sources cited above) have Zimmerman tried and convicted, based on media reports... Again, sources which have the primary goal of selling advertising, which is not always compatible with telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

I've read a few articles about this incident, and they range in tone from "vigilante white cop wanna-be shoots unarmed black teen who was only getting skittles for his little brother" to "Neighborhood watch captain shoots teen after altercation".

I think there was probably bad judgement on both parties. Zimmerman was getting his butt kicked (I completely discount the size difference, I've seen plenty of little guys kick the crap out of larger guys). Zimmerman shot the guy who was kicking his ass. I probably wouldn't have done what Zimmerman did leading up to that point, but if I'm getting my ass kicked, I'm not going to assume they guy is going to lay off. I'm going to assume he's trying to hurt me bad or kill me, and if I've got a gun, I'm shooting him and minimizing the damage he does to me.

If Martin had a gun and Zimmerman didn't, it would probably have gone down the other way and Zimmerman would be dead and we'd have people screaming that Martin was guilty of murder and he should be arrested and other people screaming that Zimmerman was a racist and Martin was an innocent kid with a gun fighting a white racist.

Bottom line, there's a lot of judgement being passed. What's your source of evidence? Would you bet your life on it? Many of you seem to be willing to bet Zimmerman's life on it.

You are overlooking what many feel is the most crucial fact: Zimmerman did not have to confront Martin. Until someone can produce conclusive evidence otherwise, I will continue to believe that Zimmerman's unwillingness to obey the dispatcher and leave Martin to the police was the source of this altercation.

My point about a black man being in that situation is that I am certain those same police would have made a much different judgement if the shooter had been black and victim were unarmed and white. I may be wrong, but what I seen life leads me to feel that often people claim that race is not a factor will acting as if it is a major consideration.

As for Zimmerman paying for sins of the past, I said no such thing. I am saying that given what know of this case, he should have least been arrested.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

Zimmerman is Latino, not white. nice rant though

Fine, substitute Latino for white. Or half latino. Or vulcan. Doesn't matter, doesn't change the point I was making.

 

[macaroni tony]

 

[aborgman]

You are overlooking what many feel is the most crucial fact: Zimmerman did not have to confront Martin. Until someone can produce conclusive evidence otherwise, I will continue to believe that Zimmerman's unwillingness to obey the dispatcher and leave Martin to the police was the source of this altercation.

If it turns out that Zimmerman confronted Martin - I agree.

It may not matter under Florida law though.

My point about a black man being in that situation is that I am certain those same police would have made a much different judgement if the shooter had been black and victim were unarmed and white.

What if the shooter had been black and victim were unarmed and Latino?

...and certain? I can buy likely, or maybe exceedingly likely, but certain?

certain: Known for sure; established beyond doubt.

I guess I'm just not someone who believes in absolutes in the real world.

As for Zimmerman paying for sins of the past, I said no such thing. I am saying that given what know of this case, he should have least been arrested.

I'm afraid they run up against this part of the Florida law.

A person using any force permitted by the law is immune from criminal prosecution or civil action and cannot be arrested unless a law enforcement agency determines there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful.

You have to be careful arresting the guy before you do enough investigating to have probable cause which will stand in court. Same kind of thing you need to get a search warrant.

 

[macaroni tony]

And finally, do we try and convict this man based on information the media serves up?

...

I think there was probably bad judgement on both parties.

To your first point, I would be comfortable with "try," or at least "arrest."

To your second point, I have a question. What do you think the kid did that showed bad judgement? If I'm not mistaken, Zimmerman said he followed the kid and the kid ended up shot 70 yards from his house. That doesn't look like he tried to get his butt home and fought Zimmerman when he had to?

 

[aborgman]

To your first point, I would be comfortable with "try," or at least "arrest."

Have you seen what kind of things appear to be acceptable under this law? Prosecutors don't try cases they don't think they can win - and the police are legislatively prohibited from arresting the dude unless they have probable cause that he didn't fear for his life.

To your second point, I have a question. What do you think the kid did that showed bad judgement?

I don't think we really have enough evidence to determine what actually happened - but if it is the scenario I suspect, his bad judgment was running.

If I'm not mistaken, Zimmerman said he followed the kid and the kid ended up shot 70 yards from his house. That doesn't look like he tried to get his butt home and fought Zimmerman when he had to?

My guess as to what happened is:

Zimmerman got out of his car and told Martin to stop and stay where you are. No gun pointing or anything physical involved. Just verbal instructions.

Martin runs.

Zimmerman chases Martin.

Either Zimmerman catches Martin, or Martin turns to fight.

A scuffle ensues, and Zimmerman is getting whipped.

Zimmerman shoots Martin.

Lots and lots of bad judgment by Zimmerman there. Only a very little by Martin (running). Both quite likely legally defensible under Florida law.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

You are overlooking what many feel is the most crucial fact: Zimmerman did not have to confront Martin. Until someone can produce conclusive evidence otherwise, I will continue to believe that Zimmerman's unwillingness to obey the dispatcher and leave Martin to the police was the source of this altercation.

My point about a black man being in that situation is that I am certain those same police would have made a much different judgement if the shooter had been black and victim were unarmed and white. I may be wrong, but what I seen life leads me to feel that often people claim that race is not a factor will acting as if it is a major consideration.

As for Zimmerman paying for sins of the past, I said no such thing. I am saying that given what know of this case, he should have least been arrested.

I believe I acknowledged that Zimmerman did not have to follow Martin when I said I wouldn't do what he had done up to the point he shot Martin.

But if you were in his shoes, and you had made the mistake of following him, and you are getting the crap pummeled out of you, are you going to say to yourself "I have a gun and I can possibly save my life, but since I screwed up by following him, I'll just take this beating... even if he finds my gun and shoots me with it, because I asked for it?"

And as for not heaping the sins of the past on him, I'll take you at your word.

And I'll ask why your post about cross burnings and other klan activities was relevant to this discussion. It's history, it happened, it was bad, and it's not relevant to this incident. Unless you think Zimmerman is a member of the Klan.

Zimmerman used bad judgement and a kid ended up dead. Martin may have also used bad judgement and a slight twist of fate and he could have been alive and Zimmerman dead. Zimmerman doesn't appear to be without blame, but the possibility that he may not be a hell bent for leather murdering racist appears to be overlooked here. Especially when klan references appear in posts.

 

[colcifer]

Zimmerman is half-Latino.
And although I'm waiting for more to come out before passing judgement, my gut feeling is that this thing WAS racially motivated. We'll see

There are proponents of truthiness...

My biggest issue with this is that it looks like the PD all but shrugged their shoulders and walked away

Looks can be deceiving.

You are overlooking what many feel is the most crucial fact: Zimmerman did not have to confront Martin. Until someone can produce conclusive evidence otherwise, I will continue to believe that Zimmerman's unwillingness to obey the dispatcher and leave Martin to the police was the source of this altercation.

Irrelevant. What matters is that he felt he needed to confront Martin.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I believe I acknowledged that Zimmerman did not have to follow Martin when I said I wouldn't do what he had done up to the point he shot Martin.

But if you were in his shoes, and you had made the mistake of following him, and you are getting the crap pummeled out of you, are you going to say to yourself "I have a gun and I can possibly save my life, but since I screwed up by following him, I'll just take this beating... even if he finds my gun and shoots me with it, because I asked for it?"

And as for not heaping the sins of the past on him, I'll take you at your word.

And I'll ask why your post about cross burnings and other klan activities was relevant to this discussion. It's history, it happened, it was bad, and it's not relevant to this incident. Unless you think Zimmerman is a member of the Klan.

Zimmerman used bad judgement and a kid ended up dead. Martin may have also used bad judgement and a slight twist of fate and he could have been alive and Zimmerman dead. Zimmerman doesn't appear to be without blame, but the possibility that he may not be a hell bent for leather murdering racist appears to be overlooked here. Especially when klan references appear in posts.

All cross burnings have not happened before 1965, they still happen. I can think of at least one case within the last 15 years where a black man fatally wounded teens who terrorized his family, including burning a cross. The man went to prison and only got out on appeal. I think this case was in New Jersey.

I know of man whose mother was friends with my mother whose son was a licensed state security guard in South Carolina. He frequented a bordello and was a regular of a white prostitute there. Once, after an encounter with her, he was followed by two white men who did not appreciate his taste in hookers. They shot at him and missed in a drive-by. The guard returned fire and killed both of them. After initially clearing him, the district attorney charged him with voluntary manslaughter, and he was sentenced to 37 1/2 years in prison. Once again he was released after a successful appeal, and last I heard he had nice job with the state, but that was around 1989 or 1990.

I think you need to get over being thin-skinned, everytime I am talking about race I am not taking a shot at you.

As for Zimmerman maybe being justified in shooting Martin. I really don't care. The fact that he started the fight negates any sympathy I might have had for him. Think about it, would have any sympathy for a man who killed your son, brother, father, friend, in fight he started, even if it were legally justified?

I said in my very first post that Zimmerman may be legally off the hook, but he monstrous moral failure, IMO.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

If it turns out that Zimmerman confronted Martin - I agree.

It may not matter under Florida law though.




What if the shooter had been black and victim were unarmed and Latino?

...and certain? I can buy likely, or maybe exceedingly likely, but certain?

certain: Known for sure; established beyond doubt.

I guess I'm just not someone who believes in absolutes in the real world.




I'm afraid they run up against this part of the Florida law.

A person using any force permitted by the law is immune from criminal prosecution or civil action and cannot be arrested unless a law enforcement agency determines there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful.

You have to be careful arresting the guy before you do enough investigating to have probable cause which will stand in court. Same kind of thing you need to get a search warrant.

I have no idea about some of the what ifs except that in the Miami area, Cubans are politically dominant and have had a very contentious relationship with African Americans.
That said, Latinos are extremely diverse, and not all have the same politics or relationships with Non-Hispanic blacks.

I understood from the beginning that Zimmerman may have a viable legal defense. I just feel that the finer points of self-defense law are probably not always equally excercised in all cases. As I have said before, who you are and who you shoot can have a huge impact on how you are treated in case like this, no matter what law enforcement says.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Smokin's Toaster, I should have not said what I said about being thin-skinned about being white and from Alabama. I did not mean it as an insult, but I can see where it would look like one. I edited my original comment if you did not see it.

 

[aborgman]

I understood from the beginning that Zimmerman may have a viable legal defense. I just feel that the finer points of self-defense law are probably not always equally excercised in all cases.

Based on reading this law - I'm not sure there are finer points. It basically says "if you're scared, you can kill"... and it prevents the cops from even arresting you without probable cause. Probable cause that you didn't really fear for your life.

As I have said before, who you are and who you shoot can have a huge impact on how you are treated in case like this, no matter what law enforcement says.

Absolutely - although if you look at how this law has generally been used, a lot of folks are getting off for some pretty offensive "defensive" shooting.