Another Shooting

[Dr_Funkdamental]

Please review my post. I said:

I'd say the same thing to a white person who felt the need to point out every injustice committed by a black person against a white person too.

I was speaking of injustices in general.

I'm going to stand down, this is becoming yet another "your race is more racist than my race" thread.
I don't believe that, but clearly some here do.

I read what you said. I said "Partly" because once again, crime happens regardless of race. Injustice happens regardless of race. If you feel something is OT worthy, post it. Apparently ppl dont seem to care about posting the injustices you pointed out. Occurrences like this seem to concern Dr Cheese to the point where he feels like discussing it. You dont have to join in or play equalizer, esp when you get riled up at the assumption that hes always "race baiting". I mean, it IS top news, so whats the issue in discussing it? *shrug*

As far as your last statement, who are those "some"? Honestly I think you feel that way anyway and approach the threads as such. We're talking about one specific event. Many ppl of different ethnicities on here have agreed that race may very well have played a part, not just the black ppl lol. One doesnt have to play injustice "tug of war" to admit that ONE occurrence could possibly be racially motivated. You seem to always lump all them into one. I always learn alot from these threads, whether its laws we dont know, or how to look at it from diff perspectives. Many times after reading a thread like this, it causes me to challenge my fellow same race ppl with similar reasoning to see if they are duped or "baited" into wrongful anger.

Just because an incident contains a black person as a victim doesnt always mean every black person is crying "its cause hes black!". In this case tho...lol

 

[Dr_Funkdamental]

The 911 tapes have been released. Apparently, they describe someone being shot and someone crying for help. Martin's family said they feel the tapes show that justice has not been done but until I hear or read more, I cannot judge for myself.

Yeah I just listened to them. Noone seems to know though, if its Martin or Zimmerman crying for help.

 

[Relic]

This whole issue is freaking heart-wrenching..

I've just read a lot more of this case than I had prior. The more I think about this the more I'm certain that there's absolutely a racial element to Zimmerman's actions. I'm just not sure of to what degree.

I'm 100% certain that Zimmerman profiled the kid right off the bat and assumed the worse. How else can simply walking down the street be a "suspicious" activity? Then he calls 911 and is told to stay put and let the cops handle it, but no way in this guys mind is he going to let this "black hoodlum" get away, so he follows him and maybe confronts him maybe not but Martin being a teenager is going to act predictably like a teenager (I have a son the same age) and start arguing with Zimmerman "what the hell are you doing?? Get out of here, leave me the hell alone, etc etc etc" But Zimmerman cant let it go so escalates it, maybe Martin gets the better of him somehow, maybe not but Zimmerman is not going to let this "black hoodlum" win so shoots him.. ugh

I know that none if this is provable at the moment and it's even a little silly to write that but the way I see it, a kid was walking down the street, was confronted and shot. Zimmerman should be locked the hell up. Unless some bizarre twist comes to light, I'm going with Zimmerman being a racist murderer.

 

[thumpbass1]

To me it sounds like Zimmerman was an overzealous nut looking for a confrontation to begin with. It led to unjustifiable homicide as the result. I hope Zimmerman is charged with murder, and faces some serious prison time if convicted. That's all I have to say, other than my thoughts and prayers are with the victim's family and friends, and I hope they get justice.

 

[Phil Smith]

I heard the tape, very eerie, the kid does run away from Zimmerman but at some point Zimmerman catches up with him and they are fighting, you hear screaming right up to the moment the shot is fired.

 

[onosson]

I'm personal friends with a police officer on the Anchorage PD (he was an Army buddy of mine) and he told me that here, it doesn't matter if it's a righteous killing or not...if you kill someone you WILL be arrested and detained for questioning while the investigation begins. He said it's a matter of policy; they are required to arrest anyone who causes the death of another person until things can get sorted out.

I am shocked that Florida doesn't handle it that way. You kill someone in Florida and the police on scene have to make an immediate determination about whether they will have enough to convict you before they arrest you? At that point, they haven't even had a chance to investigate anything yet. That seems like a ridiculously unfair burden to put on the officers on-scene. Seems like they should scoop up anyone involved in the killing, question them, start the investigation, and then decides who gets to stay in jail and who gets to go home. I must be misunderstanding this.

Something's fishy about this whole story.

That's exactly how I feel about it. I'm sure if someone here was found at the scene of a death, in possession of the instrument/weapon that caused said death, they would be taken into custody. They might be released later, but why take the chance that you're letting a murderer walk away?

Do they let EVERY person who kills someone else in Florida walk away initially? If not, what are the criteria that would cause them to take a person into custody?

 

[Dr. Cheese]

That's exactly how I feel about it. I'm sure if someone here was found at the scene of a death, in possession of the instrument/weapon that caused said death, they would be taken into custody. They might be released later, but why take the chance that you're letting a murderer walk away?

Do they let EVERY person who kills someone else in Florida walk away initially? If not, what are the criteria that would cause them to take a person into custody?

From what I understand, Zimmerman was handcuffed at the scene and taken for questioning. My problem is that I suspect he could have charged. My gut feeling is that the police set a very low evidence bar in this case.

 

[burk48237]

From what I understand, Zimmerman was handcuffed at the scene and taken for questioning. My problem is that I suspect he could have charged. My gut feeling is that the police set a very low evidence bar in this case.

Zimmerman could still be charged, usually if a person is cooperative, and has no criminal record (an expunged charge isn't available to LE at the time), and reported the crime themselves, and aren't a flight risk, they aren't held in these kind of cases.

We had a similar case in Detroit recently that took three days for the prosecutor to put together charges (murder) and in the Detroit case the person had no CPL and the gun was illegal. And the person charged wasn't held during those three days. The Detroit case was pretty bad too, it might deserve its own thread. In this case the man was shot after arguing over the price of condoms. And the clerk came out from behind bullet proof glass to do it. So it was much more clear cut.

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[Gaius46]

I'm personal friends with a police officer on the Anchorage PD (he was an Army buddy of mine) and he told me that here, it doesn't matter if it's a righteous killing or not...if you kill someone you WILL be arrested and detained for questioning while the investigation begins. He said it's a matter of policy; they are required to arrest anyone who causes the death of another person until things can get sorted out.

I am shocked that Florida doesn't handle it that way. You kill someone in Florida and the police on scene have to make an immediate determination about whether they will have enough to convict you before they arrest you? At that point, they haven't even had a chance to investigate anything yet. That seems like a ridiculously unfair burden to put on the officers on-scene. Seems like they should scoop up anyone involved in the killing, question them, start the investigation, and then decides who gets to stay in jail and who gets to go home. I must be misunderstanding this.

Something's fishy about this whole story.

Apparently Florida law doesn't allow for an arrest in a self defense case absent evidence that shooting was not justified. The PD claims they have no evidence that the shooting was unjustified and so haven't arrested him yet.


Regarding unintended consequences, all laws, pretty much all human behavior potentially have unintended consequences. It's the nature of the beast.

i'm not saying its true in this case but one can easily imagine that the "no arrest" clause in this law and laws like it were put in place to shield people who obviously acted in self defense from the cost, pain and stigma of an arrest and legal action. On the one hand in this case a person who perhaps should be prosecuted may avoid it. On the other there are documented cases of people who legitimately feared for their lives being arrested and jailed and incurring ruinous legal costs simply because they defended themselves or perhaps in the heat of the moment made a decision that people, after the fact and with hours to think about it, determine was wrong.

 

[onosson]

Regarding unintended consequences, all laws, pretty much all human behavior potentially have unintended consequences. It's the nature of the beast.

Sure. That's no reason not to try to make things more clear when you have the opportunity to.

Look at it this way. I have kids, and we have rules in our house that they are told about and expected to follow. As parents, we might not think through every consequence of every rule. But if it becomes clear to me that one of our rules wasn't clear enough, or led to things that we hadn't originally considered, I wouldn't hesitate to change it.

And I'm just one person with kids - not a legislative body governing millions of people.

 

[nutdog]

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I listened to the tapes on the Orlando Sentinel site and read the articles there and at the Miami Herald. The published tapes don't match up with what the Martin lawyers are saying. They say two shots and you can hear Tray pleading for help. There is nothing like that on the 3 published clips.

A couple of things that were not mentioned previously:

Zimmerman was on watch because of several recent burglaries. The suspicious behavior was someone wandering around in the rain at night looking at the buildings. He didn't mention the person was black until asked. At first he wasn't sure, then he verified it when the person started walking toward him. The person then apparently walked in another direction.

Martin was staying in the neighborhood because he was suspended from school for 10 days. The family won't say why except to say it he violated school rules and it wasn't violent.

The investigator said they

have not arrested Zimmerman because prosecutors have consistently told them they do not have enough evidence to win a manslaughter conviction.

The police chief said

he has no qualms about the U.S. Department of Justice getting involved. He's been in touch with that office for several days, trying to set up a meeting, he said.

"If the DOJ wants to come in and look at what we've done, we are an open book," said Lee.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I heard the part of the tape where Zimmerman called the police, I have not yet heard the part about the struggle. The call Zimmerman made is damning, IMO. He says Martin looks like he is on drugs and is looking around. Sorry, but looking around while walking, especially when in a new place strikes me as normal
human behavior. Zimmerman says Martin is checking him out and he sounds like someone waiting for a fight. He talks about Martin having something in his hands, last I heard carrying stuff is legal.

I'm hearing someone who had had profiled an innocent pedestrian. I'm hearing someone itching for a confrontation.

 

[Dr_Funkdamental]

Yeah, Also for those who havent looked, check out the pics of Martin. I know when someone says "Football player" everyone starts thinking lineman or linebacker. This kid is straight scrawny. *kanyeshrug*

 

[Phil Smith]

I heard the part of the tape where Zimmerman called the police, I have not yet heard the part about the struggle. The call Zimmerman made is damning, IMO. He says Martin looks like he is on drugs and is looking around. Sorry, but looking around while walking, especially when in a new place strikes me as normal
human behavior. Zimmerman says Martin is checking him out and he sounds like someone waiting for a fight. He talks about Martin having something in his hands, last I heard carrying stuff is legal.

I'm hearing someone who had had profiled an innocent pedestrian. I'm hearing someone itching for a confrontation.

You forget to mention that Zimmerman says that Martin ran away during that exchange which means he chased after him.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

You forget to mention that Zimmerman says that Martin ran away during that exchange which means he chased after him.

Thanks for bringing that up.

 

[Phil Smith]

I listened to the tapes on the Orlando Sentinel site and read the articles there and at the Miami Herald. The published tapes don't match up with what the Martin lawyers are saying. They say two shots and you can hear Tray pleading for help. There is nothing like that on the 3 published clips.

You don't know what Martin sounds like, I'm going to side with the people that know him when they say that's his voice.

A couple of things that were not mentioned previously:

Zimmerman was on watch because of several recent burglaries. The suspicious behavior was someone wandering around in the rain at night looking at the buildings. He didn't mention the person was black until asked. At first he wasn't sure, then he verified it when the person started walking toward him. The person then apparently walked in another direction.

Martin RAN in the other direction.

Martin was staying in the neighborhood because he was suspended from school for 10 days. The family won't say why except to say it he violated school rules and it wasn't violent.

The investigator said they

The police chief said

So he was suspicious of being suspended from school?

 

[onosson]

In terms of this law, it would be nice if someone could clarify whether someone chasing after you constitutes grounds to reasonably suspect imminent violence against you?

 

[Phil Smith]

Thanks for bringing that up.

Also you hear the yelling and then the shot and then no yelling, which to me means it wasn't Zimmerman. It's not likely that he's calling for help at the moment he shoots someone.

 

[sloasdaylight]

He is a suspect who has yet to be truly treated as a suspect.

In your mind, the police, who were there and have more information than we do, obviously disagree.

Or maybe he still is a suspect, but there's not enough information to arrest him and land a conviction.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

In your mind, the police, who were there and have more information than we do, obviously disagree.

Or maybe he still is a suspect, but there's not enough information to arrest him and land a conviction.

That's what they say, I just am not convinced they are telling the truth or digging as hard as they can dig.