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Another Shooting

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#301
Dr. Cheese said:
I think there is a case to be made that the actions of Zimmerman denied Martin his civil rights. I'm not a lawyer, but this statute has been used many times when local jurisdictions have failed to serve justice.
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If Zimmerman truly murdered Martin I honestly hope he fries. But I for one really dislike when laws like the Civil Rights Act of 1964 get twisted completely beyond recognition to get someone who otherwise can't be gotten. It sets a really bad precedent.

Ad for the record I feel the same way RICO statutes, forfeiture laws, and the Interstate Commerce Clause to name a few
 
#302
Gaius46 said:
If Zimmerman truly murdered Martin I honestly hope he fries. But I for one really dislike when laws like the Civil Rights Act of 1964 get twisted completely beyond recognition to get someone who otherwise can't be gotten. It sets a really bad precedent.

Ad for the record I feel the same way RICO statutes, forfeiture laws, and the Interstate Commerce Clause to name a few
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Civil Rights violation prosecutions are nothing new. As far as I know the law was created because local jurisdictions did not do their jobs, and seems to still be the case.
 
#303
Dr. Cheese said:
Civil Rights violation prosecutions are nothing new. As far as I know the law was created because local jurisdictions did not do their jobs, and seems to still be the case.
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I think it's good they have someone to turn to if needed. One thing that's not out (at least I haven't seen it) is Zimmerman's account of what happened after his 911 call. It will be interesting to see how the police arrived at the conclusion that his story is supported, or at least not contradicted, by the tapes and witness accounts.

That explanation would go a long way in determining whether they are racist, corrupt, negligent, stupid, all or none.
 
#304
Dr. Cheese said:
No I don't. If federal civil charges are actually filed, those who professionally deal in the law will explain it better than I ever could.

My guess is that an argument can be made that Zimmerman committed a violation in an attempt to apprehend or detain Martin.
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If Zimmerman attempted to restrain Martin, which is an unknown, it wouldn't be a civil rights issue, it would be a misdemeanor.

There is no evidence suggesting race was a factor in Zimmerman's determination that Martin was a threat; given what's been reported (to my knowledge) about his call to the police, he was concerned because of Martin's gait and choice to wear his hood up. An argument can be made that Zimmerman didn't know Martin's skin color until their confrontation.
 
#305
colcifer said:
If Zimmerman attempted to restrain Martin, which is an unknown, it wouldn't be a civil rights issue, it would be a misdemeanor.

There is no evidence suggesting race was a factor in Zimmerman's determination that Martin was a threat; given what's been reported (to my knowledge) about his call to the police, he was concerned because of Martin's gait and choice to wear his hood up. An argument can be made that Zimmerman didn't know Martin's skin color until their confrontation.
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Who said civil rights equals skin color? If there is case to be made, we will find out.
 
#306
colcifer said:
If Zimmerman attempted to restrain Martin, which is an unknown, it wouldn't be a civil rights issue, it would be a misdemeanor.

There is no evidence suggesting race was a factor in Zimmerman's determination that Martin was a threat; given what's been reported (to my knowledge) about his call to the police, he was concerned because of Martin's gait and choice to wear his hood up. An argument can be made that Zimmerman didn't know Martin's skin color until their confrontation.
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No that argument cant be made .. he said "He looks black" .. that was after he said "He looks like he's up to no good.." so he was assuming the boy was dangerous before he even did anything... "These @holes... they always get away..." Then he said "he is black.." Well he was going to make sure that this one didn't get away, and he did just that ... When asked the possible age of the suspect he said ... "Late teens.." so he knew this was a kid.. What you need to ask yourself to put all this in perspective is ... If that boy was white would he be alive today? There were so so many other ways he could have handled this that would not have ended up in the death of this kid. Sorry ... that dude is a murderer, a coward AND a racist to boot.. I hope he gets the full measure of the law thrown at him.

He was told to wait for he police so he should have not tried to restrain him alone.. He only did so because he knew that if things got out of hand he had an equalizer.. To expect this kid .. to see this guy following him and not go something like... "Hey man what is your problem? Can I help you with something? " is asking much. Any of us here in the same situation would respond in a similar fashion. Zimmerman should at the least be if not under arrest out on bail pending a grand jury investigation and upon said investigation should be brought to trial for 2nd degree murder , manslaughter or negligent homicide which ever one the DA has a best shot of sticking.. That man was wrong.. he judged that boy before he even had contact with him.. He had the option to stay in his car.. he had a gun.. he was bigger than the boy... and he was an adult.. all he saw was a threatening black face... and now those parents are without their son. It breaks my heart ... My son is 15.. he stands 5'11" .. is 215lbs.. is a guard & tackle on his HS football team.. and he is a great kid.. that could have been my son visiting my parents in Port St Lucie with some other neighborhood watch clown who has seen to may movies.. I hope that he gets to make his own prison movie ..
 
#307
Sav'nBass said:
That is total BS.. and that line of reasoning is one reason why people get away with things like this .. Police are just as fallible .. if not more so as everyone else because unlike Joe Blow they have a certain amount of power behind what they do and they bring their baggage along with them.. I have seen it in cops of every hue ....

The fact that this man was advised by a dispatcher to wait for police, the fact that he was an adult, was armed and was bigger than the victim all paint a very clear and concise picture of what transpired here. If you were 17 and in a strange neighborhood .. and had someone tailing you in a car .. that alone would make anyone nervous and run like hell. This is just another case of someone being murdered in cold blood WWB. That boy did not have to die and that man should be up for negligent homicide at the least. He had all the control.. He could have stayed in his car and just followed the kid if he thought he was up to no good.. The fact that he not only got out of his car but came close enough to this kid to scuffle with him... knowing in advance that he was armed and capable of ending the situation with a few shots tells me all I need to know.

All of you trying to defend this prick need your friggin heads and hearts examined. This was a cold blooded murder plain and simple. That man already had it in his head that .."this one won't get away.." This boy was guilty of nothing but walking while black.. I have seen this scenario too may times in my 56 years all across the country... For me it was pretty d@mned clear even before these tapes were released.. now it is crystal.
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Ok.
 
#308
colcifer said:
If Zimmerman attempted to restrain Martin, which is an unknown, it wouldn't be a civil rights issue, it would be a misdemeanor.

There is no evidence suggesting race was a factor in Zimmerman's determination that Martin was a threat; given what's been reported (to my knowledge) about his call to the police, he was concerned because of Martin's gait and choice to wear his hood up. An argument can be made that Zimmerman didn't know Martin's skin color until their confrontation.
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You need to get up to speed with what the latest developments are. I suggest you listen to Zimmerman's call to the police that will fill in the gaps for you..
 
#310
Dr. Cheese said:
Civil Rights violation prosecutions are nothing new. As far as I know the law was created because local jurisdictions did not do their jobs, and seems to still be the case.
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I know that and I don't have a problem per se with prosecuting people for violating Civil Rights law. I'm not thrilled about the federal government stepping if the state determines it doesnt have a criminal case.
 
#313
Here's an update on this story from the Dallas-Ft Worth newspaper the Invalid Link Removed.

This one is from [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] itself. This one includes the 911 tapes.

How do you like the caller who said, "I hear a guy yelling for help but I'm not going out there"? Maybe he'll need help one day and no one will come to his aide.
 
#314
totallyfrozen said:
Here's an update on this story from the Dallas-Ft Worth newspaper the Invalid Link Removed.

This one is from [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] itself. This one includes the 911 tapes.

How do you like the caller who said, "I hear a guy yelling for help but I'm not going out there"? Maybe he'll need help one day and no one will come to his aide.
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I listened to the recordings and it's unfortunate, although understandable in a culture when anyone could have a gun, That nobody went out to help. Then I very much doubt the boy would have been shot....

What ifs, eh?
 
#317
Gaius46 said:
Problem is overboard laws, especially Federal ones, can easily be abused and used as tools of oppression. Be careful what you wish for.
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It sounds like checks and balances to me. One of the great advantages of a federal system of government is that hopefully there is someone at a higher level to correct mistakes that were made below. At the highest level, mistakes are supposed to be corrected through elections.

As a person who has benefitted in my own lifetime from Federal intervention into matters that were once run by the state, I am glad the structure is the way it is. I don't know if Martin's familiy will need or qualify for Federal relief, but if they do, I know they will be glad it is there too.
 
#319
Gaius46 said:
Sorry been out of the house all day.

I'm a parent as well and do the same as you. My point though is that changing a law can have unintended consequences and wind up doing more damage than good. So I think changing a law after a one off instance where it didn't work as designed is not necessarily a good idea.
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I agree - but this isn't a one off incident.

A man stabs another man to death with an ice pick during a road rage incident and another man shoots someone during an argument over cigarettes.

Both men walk free under the provisions of Florida's 2005 "Stand Your Ground" law
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In a high-profile example of Florida’s controversial self-defense statute known as the “Stand your Ground” law, a judge has dismissed all charges against a man in what was initially considered by prosecutors to be a case worthy of the death penalty.

The Assistant State attorney in the case, Jacqui Charbonneau, tried to prevent the court’s dismissal by asserting neither of the men Monahan killed were armed, they were shot from 20 feet away, and Monahan admitted neither of them laid a hand on him during the dispute.

The judge countered with the fact that the statute does not call for the assailants to be armed or to commit physical violence, only to have created the perception of imminent violence.
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