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Another Shooting
- Thread starter Dr. Cheese
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This is so sad. In a way, this reminds me of an incident years ago that happened to a neighbor across the street. They had a little dog, and a fenced in yard. One of the teenagers from down the block decided he wanted to pet the dog. He climbed over the fenced. Dog barked, and ran. Kid cornered dog against the front door ( entranceway to front door so dog couldn't dodge to one side or the other.) dog is so scared it bites the kid. Much screaming ensues, cops are called... And DOG is taken away and caged up at animal control as possible rabies suspect! The owners had to go to court to get their dog back, and fight to make sure it wasn't put down as 'dangerous' and had household insurance rate raised because their dog was deemed dangerous. As far as I know, nothing happened to the kid, to whom I assign the responsibility for what happend, other than trip to hospital. Still makes me mad when I remember it.
Here we have a case where a young man is being followed by an adult man in a car, obviously gets
spooked, runs, is followed by said adult. Kid either decides to turn and confront his stalker, or is caught by the man he probably thought of as a stalker, fights back... How can this be self defense when the kid was basically backed into a corner by someone he doesn't know, who is NOT a cop with a badge? Self defense when the kid was RUNNING AWAY from the adult, whoas far as the kid knows, has absolutely no authority over him? Who, as far as the kid knows, may be intending to beat him to a pulp, or worse?
Thing is, I can see the kid saying he hit Zimmerman in his own defense, thinking that his pursuer was going to commit great bodily harm upon him.
As far as I know, Neighborhood Watch training includes being told to report and not get involved yourself unless someone is about to get hurt. You're supposed to wait and let the cops handle most situations. If Zimmerman had paid attention to his training, or to the instructions the 911 operator had given him, none of this would have happened. Instead, we have someone who was overly anxious to be seen as a hero killing someone who had not and was not committing any crime.
Here we have a case where a young man is being followed by an adult man in a car, obviously gets
spooked, runs, is followed by said adult. Kid either decides to turn and confront his stalker, or is caught by the man he probably thought of as a stalker, fights back... How can this be self defense when the kid was basically backed into a corner by someone he doesn't know, who is NOT a cop with a badge? Self defense when the kid was RUNNING AWAY from the adult, whoas far as the kid knows, has absolutely no authority over him? Who, as far as the kid knows, may be intending to beat him to a pulp, or worse?
Thing is, I can see the kid saying he hit Zimmerman in his own defense, thinking that his pursuer was going to commit great bodily harm upon him.
As far as I know, Neighborhood Watch training includes being told to report and not get involved yourself unless someone is about to get hurt. You're supposed to wait and let the cops handle most situations. If Zimmerman had paid attention to his training, or to the instructions the 911 operator had given him, none of this would have happened. Instead, we have someone who was overly anxious to be seen as a hero killing someone who had not and was not committing any crime.
+1..I was wondering how long it would take before the race card was played on this thread...did not take long! I will say that if that kid was doing nothing but walking home, that guy had no right to follow him and treat him like a suspect! I live in what is considered a crappy neighborhood and there are people of color walking around these streets at all hours of the night, Unless someone is trying to get into my house, I could care less, and for the record, as far as I know, all the murders that happen in the cities around me are never a racist "cracker" killing a black man, it is 99.9% black on black, But "kill whitey" goes over better huh!
Exactly .. but given what aborgman posted on pg 7 .. 
this guy may just get off... That ruling almost gives 00 status to anyone devious enough to orchestrate such an incident it is so vague.
Wow... that is what I mean by the fallibility of POs..
This case is just so sad .. I know that Zimmerman didn't wake up and say I am going to kill someone today .. but he was spoiling for a fight once the situation unfolded. I honestly don't know what I would do if I were in hat situation and the killer got off.
That was totally un called for .. and for you to sit at your PC and deny that race was a factor is traveling along a river in Egypt .. So the guy was Hispanic? That rules out race being a factor? Puuuhhlease. Heck black folks have "race" issues amongst ourselves to a degree.. and Hispanics have it just as bad as the rest of the population .. they just speak Spanish. Just ask anyone from The Dominican Republic.. or Puerto Rico.. or Brazil .. or just about any Hispanic country that has a racially diverse population.. Nobody said anything about "kill whitey" .. in fact I have a news flash for you ... No one even uses that term anymore unless they are over 60..
To call this killing what it is ... a senseless, totally avoidable MURDER of an innocent young man that most likely would not have happened if the kid were either not black or lighter in complexion.. (and I still say if he were a white kid he'd be alive today..) is not playing the race card .. just stating the facts. I know that since the election of President Obama some folks like to think that we as a nation have been cured of our racist ways but that is not the case. The fact of racism is so deeply ingrained in our society and so subtle at times that we often fail to see it when it rears it's head. It is a sickness that demands constant vigilance on the part of those of any hue who are opposed to it, and brutal honesty in seeing it for what it is when and where it surfaces. As I said .. I am sure that this man did not wake up and say "I'm gonna kill me a ***** today." HOWEVER his own preconceptions and ideas on who does what, whether based on factual statistics or personal experience prompted him to go through a series of actions, that he was counseled against that resulted in the death of an un armed and probably terrified young man in a new neighborhood who probably, just before he died was thinking of sipping tea, tasting the rainbow and who was going to win the game .. certainly not that he was walking to the last 10 minutes of his young life. So you need to stop taking a lot of this stuff so personal and tone it down a notch because on one end .. the facts of the case thus far justify the rage and angst .. on the other hand they do not.
this guy may just get off... That ruling almost gives 00 status to anyone devious enough to orchestrate such an incident it is so vague. Wow... that is what I mean by the fallibility of POs..
This case is just so sad .. I know that Zimmerman didn't wake up and say I am going to kill someone today .. but he was spoiling for a fight once the situation unfolded. I honestly don't know what I would do if I were in hat situation and the killer got off.
That was totally un called for .. and for you to sit at your PC and deny that race was a factor is traveling along a river in Egypt .. So the guy was Hispanic? That rules out race being a factor? Puuuhhlease. Heck black folks have "race" issues amongst ourselves to a degree.. and Hispanics have it just as bad as the rest of the population .. they just speak Spanish. Just ask anyone from The Dominican Republic.. or Puerto Rico.. or Brazil .. or just about any Hispanic country that has a racially diverse population.. Nobody said anything about "kill whitey" .. in fact I have a news flash for you ... No one even uses that term anymore unless they are over 60..
To call this killing what it is ... a senseless, totally avoidable MURDER of an innocent young man that most likely would not have happened if the kid were either not black or lighter in complexion.. (and I still say if he were a white kid he'd be alive today..) is not playing the race card .. just stating the facts. I know that since the election of President Obama some folks like to think that we as a nation have been cured of our racist ways but that is not the case. The fact of racism is so deeply ingrained in our society and so subtle at times that we often fail to see it when it rears it's head. It is a sickness that demands constant vigilance on the part of those of any hue who are opposed to it, and brutal honesty in seeing it for what it is when and where it surfaces. As I said .. I am sure that this man did not wake up and say "I'm gonna kill me a ***** today." HOWEVER his own preconceptions and ideas on who does what, whether based on factual statistics or personal experience prompted him to go through a series of actions, that he was counseled against that resulted in the death of an un armed and probably terrified young man in a new neighborhood who probably, just before he died was thinking of sipping tea, tasting the rainbow and who was going to win the game .. certainly not that he was walking to the last 10 minutes of his young life. So you need to stop taking a lot of this stuff so personal and tone it down a notch because on one end .. the facts of the case thus far justify the rage and angst .. on the other hand they do not.
jarrydee said:
The race card is probably one of the oddest phrases ever coined because if race is factor, it should be discussed. If it's not, it should be dismissed.
As for "black on black crime," most killings are done by people of the same ethnicity. Also, many murders draw little comment because they were predictable given the lifestyle of the victims and perpetrators. The death of Martin drew attention because he had done nothing to warrant it. Hopefully, his color does not cloud that fact.
I believe Zimmerman should be charged with multiple crimes.
And yes, I do see racism in this situation, the least of which was profiling, and I see a few other potential "-isms" as well, cronyism and vigilantism.
Zimmerman was studying criminal justice, took it upon himself to be an apparently over zealous neighborhood watch "captain", and had a habit of calling in "suspicious individuals" to 911, and had a concealed weapons permit and was carrying a lethal weapon.
Take each of these points independently, nothing too alarming, at least for the culture of a southern state in this country.
But as a whole, a picture of a pathological "do gooder" seemed to tragically evolve into a paranoid, frightened vigilante.
My issues:
1. Zimmerman studied "criminal justice". This is typically the studies of someone who wants to pursue a career in law enforcement. In pursuing these studies, did he establish pre-professional or social ties to local law enforcement, and subsequently is now being protected as an "insider"? Perhaps the state police or FBI needs to be a part of this investigation.
2. As a neighborhood watch "captain", he should have been aware of his "authority", or lack thereof, in actually approaching, intervening, or confronting situations in the neighborhood. His "duty" was merely to report activity, NOT to inject himself into the situation. It is clear Zimmerman went well beyond this "duty" and should be held accountable for this.
3. Also, in what official role was he a neighborhood watch "captain"? Perhaps the Martin family needs to pursue holding the neighborhood watch association or homeowner's association or whatever neighborhood watch sanctioning organization (if any?) accountable for the actions of Zimmerman. Conversely, if there is no sanctioning body, this is further evidence that Zimmerman could be viewed as an unstable vigilante, and should be held accountable for this.
4. He had a concealed weapon permit and was armed. The process of obtaining a concealed carry permit would be very difficult without at least covering the basic judicial aspects of lethal force. Again, Zimmerman should be accountable for his actions contributing at the VERY LEAST to escalating and instigating a confrontation that resulted in the need for lethal force. Most "reasonable man" arguments are clear, an individual cannot simply "pick a fight" and then whip out a gun and shoot someone and merely claim "self defense". There is culpability in initiating the confrontation, at the very least. Zimmerman should be accountable for this.
And finally, I am disturbed at the behavior of the neighborhood, the individuals not willing to help when there was clearly someone in distress calling for help. Granted, I am not one to go running toward the sound of gunshots myself, but before things got to that point where was at least one human being willing to investigate someone screaming for help?
Seems we as humans haven't progressed much since Kitty Genovese murder.
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And yes, I do see racism in this situation, the least of which was profiling, and I see a few other potential "-isms" as well, cronyism and vigilantism.
Zimmerman was studying criminal justice, took it upon himself to be an apparently over zealous neighborhood watch "captain", and had a habit of calling in "suspicious individuals" to 911, and had a concealed weapons permit and was carrying a lethal weapon.
Take each of these points independently, nothing too alarming, at least for the culture of a southern state in this country.
But as a whole, a picture of a pathological "do gooder" seemed to tragically evolve into a paranoid, frightened vigilante.
My issues:
1. Zimmerman studied "criminal justice". This is typically the studies of someone who wants to pursue a career in law enforcement. In pursuing these studies, did he establish pre-professional or social ties to local law enforcement, and subsequently is now being protected as an "insider"? Perhaps the state police or FBI needs to be a part of this investigation.
2. As a neighborhood watch "captain", he should have been aware of his "authority", or lack thereof, in actually approaching, intervening, or confronting situations in the neighborhood. His "duty" was merely to report activity, NOT to inject himself into the situation. It is clear Zimmerman went well beyond this "duty" and should be held accountable for this.
3. Also, in what official role was he a neighborhood watch "captain"? Perhaps the Martin family needs to pursue holding the neighborhood watch association or homeowner's association or whatever neighborhood watch sanctioning organization (if any?) accountable for the actions of Zimmerman. Conversely, if there is no sanctioning body, this is further evidence that Zimmerman could be viewed as an unstable vigilante, and should be held accountable for this.
4. He had a concealed weapon permit and was armed. The process of obtaining a concealed carry permit would be very difficult without at least covering the basic judicial aspects of lethal force. Again, Zimmerman should be accountable for his actions contributing at the VERY LEAST to escalating and instigating a confrontation that resulted in the need for lethal force. Most "reasonable man" arguments are clear, an individual cannot simply "pick a fight" and then whip out a gun and shoot someone and merely claim "self defense". There is culpability in initiating the confrontation, at the very least. Zimmerman should be accountable for this.
And finally, I am disturbed at the behavior of the neighborhood, the individuals not willing to help when there was clearly someone in distress calling for help. Granted, I am not one to go running toward the sound of gunshots myself, but before things got to that point where was at least one human being willing to investigate someone screaming for help?
Seems we as humans haven't progressed much since Kitty Genovese murder.
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I just scratch my head at the Sanford PD's rationalization for not arresting Zimmerman.
1. If I shoot and kill someone in FL
2. there are no witnesses to the actual shooting
3. I claim self-defense and the dead victim is unarmed and was heard by multiple witnesses screaming for help, no arrest?
1. If I shoot and kill someone in FL
2. there are no witnesses to the actual shooting
3. I claim self-defense and the dead victim is unarmed and was heard by multiple witnesses screaming for help, no arrest?
Unless I missed something in the pages of this thread, I believe they are still investigating to determine possible charges. No arrest, YET.
True, but we are hearing from the witnesses that their initial statements were "coached" by the initial responders to say it was the shooter that was screaming for help.
And that any witnesses who said that they heard the teenager screaming for help were being willfully ignored by interrogators.
And the public statements to date by the police chief and the police spokesman are very supportive of Zimmerman (the shooter).
And, the fact that the case was pretty much wrapped up until it got a second life by social media attention.
Obviously, I don't know, but it sounds to me like the Sanford police were trying to sweep this all under the rug and got caught. I'm intensely interested in finding out what happens and comes to light in the next few days.
seventhson said:
I continue to feel that regardless of the way that the stand your ground law is written in Florida, the police probably had enough to arrest Zimmerman if they had wanted to. Everything I am hearing so far is reinforcing my belief.
It has no legal bearing at all, but I heard today that Guardian Angels, Curtis Sliwa, founder wants Zimmerman prosecuted because his actions are so much against the principals of neighborhood watch.
"Stand your ground" laws allow you to meet deadly force with deadly force. They don't allow the killing of unarmed persons. According to police, the kid was unarmed.
We have community watch groups here too. They often don't carry guns because they are there to WATCH for trouble and call the police when they see it. I thought Zimmerman was a WATCH "captain". His job was to WATCH. He wasn't the "vigilante captain" he was the "watch captain". The 911 dispatcher clearly told him that the police didn't need Zimmerman to follow the guy on foot. My opinion is that the 911 dispatcher was specifically trying to avoid a confrontation like the one that took place. If Zimmerman had stayed in his truck and simply WATCHED as he was supposed to do, he could have avoided murdering an unarmed teenager.
We have community watch groups here too. They often don't carry guns because they are there to WATCH for trouble and call the police when they see it. I thought Zimmerman was a WATCH "captain". His job was to WATCH. He wasn't the "vigilante captain" he was the "watch captain". The 911 dispatcher clearly told him that the police didn't need Zimmerman to follow the guy on foot. My opinion is that the 911 dispatcher was specifically trying to avoid a confrontation like the one that took place. If Zimmerman had stayed in his truck and simply WATCHED as he was supposed to do, he could have avoided murdering an unarmed teenager.
+1
The whole issue of NO ONE going to the boy's aide sickens me. I hear the arguments about not wanting to rush into a gunfight, etc. but it's too easy to be a coward. I'm more likely to look at a situation to find a reason NOT to get involved than to be afraid to consider getting involved in the first place. Zimmerman was trying to be the neighborhood's "guardian". It probably would have only taken ONE person to run out there and yell, "Hey! What the hell is going on here?!" To get Zimmerman to stop. The fact that NO ONE came to the aide of this boy may have justified in Zimmerman's mind that the neighborhood didn't want this "@$$hole" (as he called them) around.
From [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Looks like you only have to "prove" you "felt" your life was in danger to get away with murder in FL.
This abcnews.com report shows (to me) how the Sanford PD conducted themselves in this investigation. Look at some of the public quotes coming from the police chief and the spokesperson...shameful imo.
Neighborhood Watchman Who Allegedly Shot Trayvon Martin Wanted to Be a Cop - ABC News
As much as I want Zimmerman to be prosecuted. In the long run, the state of Florida has to look at the way this stand your ground law has been written. It is a license to murder, and sooner or later, the dead bodies won't just belong to the sort of people that those don't care about.
I don't think it's coincidental that Zimmerman, who is a criminal justice major AND has a conceal carry permit, knew to yell "self defense" when the police arrived at the scene.
No, it's not, and you know that it's not.
Florida was #22 in Handgun homicides per 100,000, at 3.15 in 2004. If the stand your ground law was a "license to murder" I suspect we'd be MUCH higher. I mean, after all, we all have a license to murder some one.
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