Another Shooting

[Dr. Cheese]

Now you're calling it a cover up. Hmmm..... Have the police or DA stated that Zimmerman will not be charged? Maybe, just maybe, the q&a you posted contains some rationale behind the delay.

I think this situation is fishy. If I am wrong, I am wrong. I honestly feel there was enough evidence to charge Zimmerman, and the police chose not to do it. I have said this for a while, and you should now it if you have followed this thread.

 

[guy n. cognito]

I think this situation is fishy. If I am wrong, I am wrong. I honestly feel there was enough evidence to charge Zimmerman, and the police chose not to do it. I have said this for a while, and you should now it if you have followed this thread.

The Orlando Sentinental Q&A contained a statement that some police departments were turning cases of alleged self defense over to the DA for charges. I wonder if a logical person would conclude that this is the reason for the delay?

 

[Dr. Cheese]

The Orlando Sentinental Q&A contained a statement that some police departments were turning cases of alleged self defense over to the DA for charges. I wonder if a logical person would conclude that this is the reason for the delay?

I believe further investigation will show that the Sanford Police failed to do due diligence or possibly suppressed evidence at the very beginning. The odds of them getting charged with suppression are probably low, but I think there is good chance that a fair investigation will show negligence in the initial handling of the Martin killing.

 

[onosson]

The Orlando Sentinental Q&A contained a statement that some police departments were turning cases of alleged self defense over to the DA for charges. I wonder if a logical person would conclude that this is the reason for the delay?

Perhaps the police are frustrated with the position this law puts them in. It seems like an unreasonable burden - they need to make a decision very quickly on what in some cases might be murder. They may be just as unhappy with this law as anyone else.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Perhaps the police are frustrated with the position this law puts them in. It seems like an unreasonable burden - they need to make a decision very quickly on what in some cases might be murder. They may be just as unhappy with this law as anyone else.

I think the police have overstated the position the law put them in because I am not convinced that they were seriously committed to solving this case when it first happened. I am pretty sure that if Trayvon Martin had been 28 and shot a 17 year old George Zimmerman, he would have been arrested the night of the shooting.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed])

This short link shows some recent history that indicates that Sanford has not created a culture that would be assuring the minorities and African Americans in particular.

I posted another link that stated that the officer on the scene of the Martin shooting was the same one who refused to arrest the chief of police's son for shooting a black person in the back in 2005.

 

[aborgman]

I think this situation is fishy. If I am wrong, I am wrong. I honestly feel there was enough evidence to charge Zimmerman, and the police chose not to do it. I have said this for a while, and you should now it if you have followed this thread.

I think when one looks at all the other police agencies in Florida who just automatically turn any self defense case over to the state attorneys (just as the Sanford police have done) because of the difficulty of arresting under the current laws it tempers that idea a bit.

Based on my reading, this sort of reaction appears to be standard in these cases - regardless of the races of the involved. The local police are legislatively prohibited from arresting someone unless they have probable cause that the person didn't feel afraid for their life.

So instead of getting sued - it appears to have become standard practice to just pass the buck on these sorts of cases to the state.

 

[aborgman]

I think the police have overstated the position the law put them in because I am not convinced that they were seriously committed to solving this case when it first happened.

Have you looked at some of the other ridiculous cases (in other jurisdictions in Florida) where local police failed to charge in self defense shootings?

One guy shot two unarmed men, who never touched him, and at the closest got about 20' away from him - and it was determined to be a justifiable self defense shooting. The cops would have broken the law had they arrested the guy.

 

[onosson]

I think the police have overstated the position the law put them in because I am not convinced that they were seriously committed to solving this case when it first happened. I am pretty sure that if Trayvon Martin had been 28 and shot a 17 year old George Zimmerman, he would have been arrested the night of the shooting.

That may be - I was just speaking in general in regards to this law (or ones like it), not about this particular case. It would be more than unfortunate if the end result is that an investigation is not done properly, especially where someone's death is concerned.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Have you looked at some of the other ridiculous cases (in other jurisdictions in Florida) where local police failed to charge in self defense shootings?

One guy shot two unarmed men, who never touched him, and at the closest got about 20' away from him - and it was determined to be a justifiable self defense shooting. The cops would have broken the law had they arrested the guy.

If they don't feel the law will allow them to arrest Zimmerman, the police need to come out and say so very soon. If they are making a good faith effort to bring charges and cannot, they need to admit it. The longer they put it off, the more they will look like they are stonewalling.

 

[AfroCubanFunkMa]

911 tapes released.. WARNING: I couldn't listen to it all but the article states that Martin is heard pleading for his life.. It's even worse than we thought.. :scowl:

Trayvon Martin Case: 911 Audio Released Of Teen Allegedly Shot By Neighborhood Watch Captain (AUDIO)

 

[aborgman]

If they don't feel the law will allow them to arrest Zimmerman, the police need to come out and say so very soon. If they are making a good faith effort to bring charges and cannot, they need to admit it. The longer they put it off, the more they will look like they are stonewalling.

Ummm... did you miss the part where the police you think might be crooked (Sanford PD) handed off the case to the State's Attorney Office several days ago?

It's completely out of the hands of the Sanford PD at this point, and any complaints about charges not happening would have to be pointed at the Florida State's Attorney Office.

They're the one making the determination whether or not to charge at this point - NOT the Sanford PD.

According to my understanding - Sanford PD is incapable of stonewalling or doing anything else at this point, because they are no longer managing the case.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Ummm... did you miss the part where the police you think might be crooked (Sanford PD) handed off the case to the State's Attorney Office several days ago?

It's completely out of the hands of the Sanford PD at this point, and any complaints about charges not happening would have to be pointed at the Florida State's Attorney Office.

They're the one making the determination whether or not to charge at this point - NOT the Sanford PD.

According to my understanding - Sanford PD is incapable of stonewalling or doing anything else at this point, because they are no longer managing the case.

You're right. That did happen, and I am wrong.

 

[nutdog]

Based on my reading, this sort of reaction appears to be standard in these cases - regardless of the races of the involved. The local police are legislatively prohibited from arresting someone unless they have probable cause that the person didn't feel afraid for their life.

From the Sentinel article Cheese posted:

Justifiable use of force

776.012 Use of force in defense of person. — A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

Doesn't say feel. They could arrest if they don't think he was thinking reasonably. The judge/jury could decide.

Now 776.013 says this:

3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

So for the sake of argument, let's just say Zimmerman is following Martin. If he is in a place where he has a right to be and Martin feels threatened and attacks him out of fear then according my reading he would be justified in shooting. Not that I think that's what happened. But if Zimmerman claims this happened and no one can dispute it, what can be done? There is still no report on what Zimmerman says happened between his 911 call and the fight.

Some side observations on the article about Martin and Zimmerman:

The football photos of Martin are apparently not current, since it says he played ball in his early teens. That would explain why he doesn't look like a 17 year old in the photos.

Ten day suspension for excessive tardiness? So I guess the schools think if you can't be on time, don't come at all? Florida: Tough on Tardiness. Shooting? Not so much.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

From the Sentinel article Cheese posted:

Justifiable use of force



Doesn't say feel. They could arrest if they don't think he was thinking reasonably. The judge/jury could decide.

Now 776.013 says this:



So for the sake of argument, let's just say Zimmerman is following Martin. If he is in a place where he has a right to be and Martin feels threatened and attacks him out of fear then according my reading he would be justified in shooting. Not that I think that's what happened. But if Zimmerman claims this happened and no one can dispute it, what can be done? There is still no report on what Zimmerman says happened between his 911 call and the fight.

Some side observations on the article about Martin and Zimmerman:

The football photos of Martin are apparently not current, since it says he played ball in his early teens. That would explain why he doesn't look like a 17 year old in the photos.

Ten day suspension for excessive tardiness? So I guess the schools think if you can't be on time, don't come at all? Florida: Tough on Tardiness. Shooting? Not so much.

An article I posted said Martin had a five day suspension for tardiness. Either way, if the kid had been sent to dentention or in school suspension, he would be alive in Miami right now instead of having his life ended by a jackass in Sanford. His suspension is really troubling considering that he has been described as a good student with a good attitude by his teacher. Although it way off topic from this current thread, the suspension of Martin makes me think of recent report that cited out of proportion suspension rates for African American and Latino students.

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

Well it's a good thing Obama got elected and racism stopped.... right??


Seriously I don't know what more messed up, the fact that this poor kid is dead or the fact that the whole community is so racist this guy is walking around on the street.

 

[Phil Smith]

So for the sake of argument, let's just say Zimmerman is following Martin. If he is in a place where he has a right to be and Martin feels threatened and attacks him out of fear then according my reading he would be justified in shooting. Not that I think that's what happened. But if Zimmerman claims this happened and no one can dispute it, what can be done? There is still no report on what Zimmerman says happened between his 911 call and the fight.

Zimmerman is chasing Martin, that much we know. On the 911 recording Zimmerman describes this and take off after him. I can see Martin being afraid once he approached the car and saw Zimmerman on the phone calling who knows who and it's also possible that he flashed the weapon when approached which made Martin run away.

 

[GregC]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed])

This short link shows some recent history that indicates that Sanford has not created a culture that would be assuring the minorities and African Americans in particular.

I posted another link that stated that the officer on the scene of the Martin shooting was the same one who refused to arrest the chief of police's son for shooting a black person in the back in 2005.

I haven't followed this thread closely at all, but I've lived in the Orlando area and known people from Sanford. The part in bold is absolutely true.

 

[bassguppy]

A wanna be police officer? Minimally the guy should be charged with manslaughter, reckless endangerment, and about a dozen other charges.

It seems his neighbors weren't too happy with him either.

Zimmerman had been the subject of earlier complaints by residents of the gated community in which he and Martin's family lived. At an emergency homeowner's association meeting earlier this month, "one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home," a resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. "It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role.

 

[nutdog]

An article I posted said Martin had a five day suspension for tardiness. Either way, if the kid had been sent to dentention or in school suspension, he would be alive in Miami right now instead of having his life ended by a jackass in Sanford. His suspension is really troubling considering that he has been described as a good student with a good attitude by his teacher. Although it way off topic from this current thread, the suspension of Martin makes me think of recent report that cited out of proportion suspension rates for African American and Latino students.

I got 10 from the article I linked earlier, which is now dead. But it does show how difficult it is to find the truth based on newspaper reports.

Zimmerman is chasing Martin, that much we know. On the 911 recording Zimmerman describes this and take off after him. I can see Martin being afraid once he approached the car and saw Zimmerman on the phone calling who knows who and it's also possible that he flashed the weapon when approached which made Martin run away.

I'm not sure what you know, but on the tape the dispatcher asks if he was following Martin, and he said yes. Somehow after that they ended up "wrestling" in the back yard of one of the homes. The earliest 911 call has the screams and a gunshot in the background. At some point I think I read Zimmerman claimed he was the one screaming for help. The Martin lawyers are saying it is Martin screaming.

The Martin lawyers are also claiming there were two gunshots, but none of the callers reported more than one and there is only one in the background on the tape.

I'm not saying Zimmerman didn't gun Martin down as he was begging for his life. But proving he did may not be easy. If the prosecutors don't think they can prove it what should they do?