Another Shooting

[aborgman]

How do you know he is Hispanic?

I don't know. I merely have evidence because newspapers are reporting he is Hispanic.

So an infinite amount more evidence than for police corruption, but still not knowledge.

His skin tone means nothing. A whole lot of Florida Hispanics are quite white, and I have seen more than a few Non-Hispanic whites who Zimmerman's color. More to the point, being Hispanic (or African American for that matter,) certainly does not mean that he could not harbor racist notions about people of color.

It says nothing about whether he holds racist intentions.

It says a lot about whether he's "white" as you and others keep describing him.

He might be a racist - but it appears he isn't a white one.

 

[Phil Smith]

Robert Zimmerman, George Zimmerman's father:

"At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon, " the letter said, "everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media."

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

17 year old Trayvon Martin has been walking back from a local 7-11 with snacks for himself and his father in Sanford during the NBA All Star Game on Feb 26th, when he was following by a car being driven by George Zimmerman, who did call the police non-emergency number to report a suspicious person. According the the recordings, Zimmerman stated the person was suspicious because he was wearing a hoodie and walking too slow in his opinion in the rain.

During the phone call to police he was recorded as saying, "these a..holes always get away."

Police instructed him to stay in his car and to not take any action. According to witnesses and police reports, about a minute later he exited his vehicle and began to chase the teenager, who is from Miami, between townhouses about 70 yards from the boy's destination where he was staying.

According to ABC, Witnesses stated they heard someone calling for help, and another stated he saw both of them on the ground. Zimmerman outweighed Martin by about 100 pounds.

Brown along with several other residents heard someone cry for help, just before hearing a gunshot. Police arrived 60 seconds later and the teen was quickly pronounced dead.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[totallyfrozen]

As I said before, I do not know how this will turn out after in investigation, but from what I see now, it looks like a needless shooting by a wanna be cop.

It might prove to be legally justifiable, but I just have a hard time seeing this killing as necessary.

There is little infromation in the article linked in the OP. The article makes it sound like a it could have been racially motivated. I don't know if it was or not, yet...but it sure looks like it.

I can tell you one thing that I've learned in all of my experienced in dealing with dangerous confrontations (including those involving firearms)--people really need to learn how to DE-ESCILLATE! De-escillate themselves and the situation. I've found that tense confrontations seem to behave like a turbo. The more tense it gets, the faster it becomes more tense until it reaches a climax of some sort--usually violence.

The guard had already called police, I can't imagine ANY reason to have to shoot the kid when you consider that the only thing police found on him was snacks. If the kid had a gun, no doubt the guard would have been quick to point that out. Either the guard was too cowardly to assume the responsibilities of being a security guard or he had some sort of hatred for teenagers or blacks. It could turn out to be something else, but that this point it looks very suspicious to me.

 

[nutdog]

How do you know he is Hispanic? His skin tone means nothing. A whole lot of Florida Hispanics are quite white, and I have seen more than a few Non-Hispanic whites who Zimmerman's color. More to the point, being Hispanic (or African American for that matter,) certainly does not mean that he could not harbor racist notions about people of color.

Uhhh...Because the news reports he is and his father's statement says he is.

ABC is reporting Zimmerman got of his car, chased down Martin, the two fought and Zimmerman shot Martin. Which is exactly what I described as the most likely scenario earlier in the thread. I'm not defending Zimmerman. But I'm also not accusing him and the Sanford police of being racists. ABC also reports Zimmerman was charged in 2005 for battery on an officer and resisting arrest. Not exactly the kind of guy police go out of their way to lie for.

Zimmerman claims self defense. The other guy can't dispute it because he's dead. The police say they have no evidence that disputes it so they can't make an arrest.

I understand the family wants justice. But to make an arrest justice requires evidence.

What would you like to see? Zimmerman strung up?

 

[AfroCubanFunkMa]

So let me get this straight.. you think it's perfectly ok that a man that SHOT and KILLED a kid with HIS OWN GUN... a kid that is much smaller than the shooter.. a shooter we know initiated the confrontation on sketchy grounds and has a history of violence and vigilante behavior.. This guy shouldn't be ARRESTED when HE KILLS A 17 YEAR OLD KID who was on his way HOME from the store with a SNACK FOR HIS YOUGER BROTHER.. NO ARREST??? REALLY?? NOT EVEN MANSLAUGHTER? NOT EVEN RECKLESS DISREGARD?? NOTHING??

 

[Relic]

I don't know for sure if there was racism involved here, police conspiracies, lies, whatever-have-you but one thing in my mind stands clear - Zimmerman should have stayed the hell put and let the authorities deal with this.
I think that most here will agree with that regardless of the other aspects.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Uhhh...Because the news reports he is and his father's statement says he is.

ABC is reporting Zimmerman got of his car, chased down Martin, the two fought and Zimmerman shot Martin. Which is exactly what I described as the most likely scenario earlier in the thread. I'm not defending Zimmerman. But I'm also not accusing him and the Sanford police of being racists. ABC also reports Zimmerman was charged in 2005 for battery on an officer and resisting arrest. Not exactly the kind of guy police go out of their way to lie for.

Zimmerman claims self defense. The other guy can't dispute it because he's dead. The police say they have no evidence that disputes it so they can't make an arrest.

I understand the family wants justice. But to make an arrest justice requires evidence.

What would you like to see? Zimmerman strung up?

I'll be blunt. I cannot and I don't think of you can honestly imagine a scenario where a black man could have shot a white teenager who was unarmed and not be arrested by those very same cops.

I can think of situations where black men have killed whites who were burning crosses, throwing rocks through their windows, or even shooting at them, and the black men were arrested. In those situations the black men were cleared, but only after going to court and even being convicted initially. The excuses the police give are not believable and I don't think they would be making these arguments if the shooter were black.

 

[macaroni tony]

Uhhh...Because the news reports he is and his father's statement says he is.

ABC is reporting Zimmerman got of his car, chased down Martin, the two fought and Zimmerman shot Martin. Which is exactly what I described as the most likely scenario earlier in the thread. I'm not defending Zimmerman. But I'm also not accusing him and the Sanford police of being racists. ABC also reports Zimmerman was charged in 2005 for battery on an officer and resisting arrest. Not exactly the kind of guy police go out of their way to lie for.

Zimmerman claims self defense. The other guy can't dispute it because he's dead. The police say they have no evidence that disputes it so they can't make an arrest.

I understand the family wants justice. But to make an arrest justice requires evidence.

What would you like to see? Zimmerman strung up?

Am I missing something here...the fact that he got out of the car and chased the kid down doesn't mean that he initiated the conflict?

 

[aborgman]

Am I missing something here...the fact that he got out of the car and chased the kid down doesn't mean that he initiated the conflict?

It does to me. If that version of events is accurate, then Zimmerman absolutely should be tossed in jail.

We'll have to wait and see what version comes out next.

 

[nutdog]

So let me get this straight.. you think it's perfectly ok that a man that SHOT and KILLED a kid with HIS OWN GUN... a kid that is much smaller than the shooter.. a shooter we know initiated the confrontation on sketchy grounds and has a history of violence and vigilante behavior.. This guy shouldn't be ARRESTED when HE KILLS A 17 YEAR OLD KID who was on his way HOME from the store with a SNACK FOR HIS YOUGER BROTHER.. NO ARREST??? REALLY?? NOT EVEN MANSLAUGHTER? NOT EVEN RECKLESS DISREGARD?? NOTHING??

Well, no. I'll try again. I suspect Zimmerman tried to detain Martin and Martin fought back and Zimmerman shot him. Zimmerman is probably claiming Martin started the altercation and he shot Martin in self defense. If there are no other witnesses or other evidence to dispute this claim then the police may feel they can't arrest based on available evidence. The investigation is on going. The evidence has been turned over to the state attorney. An arrest may still be made for some charge.

I don't know for sure if there was racism involved here, police conspiracies, lies, whatever-have-you but one thing in my mind stands clear - Zimmerman should have stayed the hell put and let the authorities deal with this.
I think that most here will agree with that regardless of the other aspects.

Obviously if he had not done anything there would be no shooting. But even if he got out of the car and asked Martin what he was doing, it isn't a crime.

Am I missing something here...the fact that he got out of the car and chased the kid down doesn't mean that he initiated the conflict?

What is missing is whether or not this is a fact. The Sun-Sentinel in Phil's link has a statement from Zimmerman's father which includes this:

The portrayal of George Zimmerman in the media, as well as the series of events that lead to the tragic shooting are false and extremely misleading. Unfortunately, some individuals and organizations have used this tragedy to further their own causes and agendas.

The events of February 26 reported in the media are also totally inaccurate. Out of respect for the on-going investigation, I will not discuss specifics. However, the media reports of the events are imaginary at best. At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event become public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media.

 

[onosson]

It's hard to believe "At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin" when, of the few established facts we have, we know that Zimmerman made a phone call about Martin before they met. I'm trying to imagine how those two things can both be true... and I can't seem to do it.

 

[mcnach]

Uhhh...Because the news reports he is and his father's statement says he is.

ABC is reporting Zimmerman got of his car, chased down Martin, the two fought and Zimmerman shot Martin. Which is exactly what I described as the most likely scenario earlier in the thread. I'm not defending Zimmerman. But I'm also not accusing him and the Sanford police of being racists. ABC also reports Zimmerman was charged in 2005 for battery on an officer and resisting arrest. Not exactly the kind of guy police go out of their way to lie for.

Zimmerman claims self defense. The other guy can't dispute it because he's dead. The police say they have no evidence that disputes it so they can't make an arrest.

I understand the family wants justice. But to make an arrest justice requires evidence.

What would you like to see? Zimmerman strung up?

So I can kill anyone without fear of being punished as long as there are no witnesses and no evidence of how it really happened, because I can always claim selfdefense... is that what you are saying???

Nonsense.

 

[mcnach]

It's hard to believe "At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin" when, of the few established facts we have, we know that Zimmerman made a phone call about Martin before they met. I'm trying to imagine how those two things can both be true... and I can't seem to do it.

Exactly.

They will just try to present the story in the most positive light, for him. Understandably. They have had enough time to think.

But hopefully enough people saw enough of the altercation to ensure the truth comes out.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

So I can kill anyone without fear of being punished as long as there are no witnesses and no evidence of how it really happened, because I can always claim selfdefense... is that what you are saying???

Nonsense.

Actually, when I was a guard, I was told to only shoot to kill because a survivor could testify and when court and the company could be sued.

 

[totallyfrozen]

What did I miss?
The guard spots the kid walking in the rain with a hoody on (OMG! don't wear a hoody even if it's raining!). Guard calls police to report a "suspicious" person walking (nothing more...just walking). 911 records him complaining that "they always get away" (or a similar statement). Witnesses say they saw a large guard wrestling with a smaller person and a shot was fired. Police arrive to find a teenager dead from a GSW to the chest. Teenager has NO weapons, only snack foods.

I've worked LE on miliary posts and done related work in the civilian world...and I've also been a security guard. There is no reasonable excuse for this guard to have confronted the youth, allowed the situation to escalate to violence, the use deadly force against and unarmed person. I'm telling you...(I've done this sort of work for years before returning to the medical field)...there is NO WAY this is justified. NO WAY.

Self-defense? Why did the guard put himself in a situation where he needed to use self-defense?
Deadly force? Where was the youth's show of deadly force or threat thereof?
Couldn't wait for police? What did the youth do that posed an IMMEDIATE threat to life and limb that required an IMMEDIATE response from security with deadly force?

When you're trained for this stuff, you're trained to follow the "use of force continuum" model (threat levels green, yellow, orange, red) and to ALWAYS ATTEMPT to de-escalate the situation to the extent possible.

The guard incriminated himself when 911 recorded him complaining that "they" always get away. That shows his anger and resentment and his determination that this one WASN'T going to get away. If this guard gets away with killing this boy, it's only going to deepen his hatred for 'them' and make him likely to kill another person. I mean, once you get away with it, it's easy to think, "Yeah, everybody understands that they deserve it. I'm doing society a favor." I think this guard probably deserves The Chair (do they still use the electric chair in Florida?), but we'll have to wait and see what all the details are first.

 

[nutdog]

So I can kill anyone without fear of being punished as long as there are no witnesses and no evidence of how it really happened, because I can always claim selfdefense... is that what you are saying???

Nonsense.

If I kill someone in self defense and there are no witnesses and no evidence of how it really happened, I should be punished... is that what you are saying???

What did I miss?

For one thing, he's not a guard. According to ABC he's a "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain". And the 911 tapes haven't been released.

The large guy/small guy thing doesn't matter much to me. I'm 225 but there are plenty of 140 pounders that could kick my butt. Speaking of deescalating, it seems to me the high school football player could have probably outrun big bad watch captain.

Like I said, I think Zimmerman tried to hold him and Martin fought back. If the police can prove that they should arrest him. If not, he won't be the first person to get away with murder.

Maybe the Sanford police are full of racists. But Zimmerman doesn't strike me as the type of guy that would get a lot of sympathy from the good ol' boys. What's in it for them? You think they're all happy this kid's dead?

 

[Gaius46]

So I can kill anyone without fear of being punished as long as there are no witnesses and no evidence of how it really happened, because I can always claim selfdefense... is that what you are saying???

Nonsense.

If there are no witnesses - and btw witnesses are notoriously unreliable - and the physical evidence does not contradict the shooters self defense claim on what basis do you send him to jail?

 

[aborgman]

So I can kill anyone without fear of being punished as long as there are no witnesses and no evidence of how it really happened, because I can always claim selfdefense... is that what you are saying???

Nonsense.

Without fear of being punished? No.

With much less likelihood of being punished, especially in a "stand your ground" state? Yep.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

If I kill someone in self defense and there are no witnesses and no evidence of how it really happened, I should be punished... is that what you are saying???



For one thing, he's not a guard. According to ABC he's a "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain". And the 911 tapes haven't been released.

The large guy/small guy thing doesn't matter much to me. I'm 225 but there are plenty of 140 pounders that could kick my butt. Speaking of deescalating, it seems to me the high school football player could have probably outrun big bad watch captain.

Like I said, I think Zimmerman tried to hold him and Martin fought back. If the police can prove that they should arrest him. If not, he won't be the first person to get away with murder.

Maybe the Sanford police are full of racists. But Zimmerman doesn't strike me as the type of guy that would get a lot of sympathy from the good ol' boys. What's in it for them? You think they're all happy this kid's dead?

Maybe. It could also be that the police could care less about another dead black youth. Since black youth are a population that suffers disproportionately from crime and commits a large amount of crime, they likely have come a psychological state where any young black man equals criminal until proven otherwise. There was a famous case in Britain where a young black student was murdered by a gang of white youth, and the police dragged their feet so long on the investigation that the perpetrators has largely still gotten away with it. The case eventually spurred a major investigation and condemnation of Scotland Yard's racial policies.

 

[Phil Smith]

I'm still trying to figure out what Zimmerman felt the teen was "Getting away with", if in fact that's what he said and is recorded on the 911 recording.