Another Shooting

[Gaius46]

+100

The notion that Martin was so agressive that he jumped into a moving car stretches credulity. It's possible, but pretty unlikely. I get that Aborgman likes to argue the possibilities, but the realistically, this is very likely to have been the case that Zimmerman sought Martin out and percipitated the conflict.

I was a 245 high school defensive lineman when a guy who must have weighed all of 175 pounds tried to forcibly take my wallet from me. Smaller people can and do attack larger ones all the time. I'm not saying it happened here, but I would not dismiss the idea out of hand.

Zimmerman was not required to follow the directions of the 911 operator. As noted they aren't police and the local PD police also noted that the instruction does not have the force of law.

I also wouldn't doubt that the local police are dragging their feet.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I was a 245 high school defensive lineman when a guy who must have weighed all of 175 pounds tried to forcibly take my wallet from me. Smaller people can and do attack larger ones all the time. I'm not saying it happened here, but I would not dismiss the idea out of hand.

Zimmerman was not required to follow the directions of the 911 operator. As noted they aren't police and the local PD police also noted that the instruction does not have the force of law.

I also wouldn't doubt that the local police are dragging their feet.

Not being required to do something does not make the choice to do something any less provocative or stupid. The shooter is the one with a history of violence and law breaking, not the shotting victim. The shooter was also older and larger. Anything is possible, but there is a bit of bending over backwards here for Zimmerman. Finally, corrupt police departments are not unusual at all. They come in all colors and situations. The possibility of police corruption is not far fetched at all.

 

[aborgman]

+100

The notion that Martin was so agressive that he jumped into a moving car stretches credulity.

I agree.

A more likely scenario is that:

1) Martin stopped and approached the non-moving car
2) Words were exchanged
3) Something physical happened.

It's possible that the car was parked, window down, and that is where the physical altercation happened.

I get that Aborgman likes to argue the possibilities, but the realistically, this is very likely to have been the case that Zimmerman sought Martin out and percipitated the conflict.

I'd place the likelihood on Zimmerman being the initiator - but I don't trust that judgement enough I'd bet anything serious on it.

 

[aborgman]

Not being required to do something does not make the choice to do something any less provocative or stupid.

I agree.

It also doesn't give Martin a pass for a physical altercation if he initiated it.

The shooter is the one with a history of violence and law breaking, not the shotting victim.

Indeterminate.

Zimmerman has a history of violence and law breaking.

We don't know what criminal history Martin has.

The shooter was also older and larger.

The shooter was also injured, in a manner that would be involved in LOSING a fight, when the police arrived.

Finally, corrupt police departments are not unusual at all. They come in all colors and situations. The possibility of police corruption is not far fetched at all.

Absolutely.

 

[onosson]

The likely scenario that unfortunately never happened:

1) Zimmerman drives home without ever having any contact with Martin.
2) No one dies.

I'm sure we'd all like to know what reason there was that this didn't happen.

 

[AfroCubanFunkMa]

We don't know what criminal history Martin has...

The shooter was also injured, in a manner that would be involved in LOSING a fight, when the police arrived.

All due respect man, actually we know Martin has absolutely NO CRIMINAL HISTORY.. unlike Zimmerman...

As for the shooter being injured and losing a fight to a kid almost half his weight while holding a gun.. That is very suspect.. all we have is the word of a Policeman who's motivation is probably just trying to protect either the gated community or his own city from embarrassing and expensive litigation.. or it could just be the good ol' boy club doing what it's done for centuries down there..

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I agree.

It also doesn't give Martin a pass for a physical altercation if he initiated it.

Indeterminate.

Zimmerman has a history of violence and law breaking.

We don't know what criminal history Martin has.

The shooter was also injured, in a manner that would be involved in LOSING a fight, when the police arrived.

Absolutely.

Come on, if Martin had a record, it would have been made public by now.

 

[aborgman]

All due respect man, actually we know Martin has absolutely NO CRIMINAL HISTORY.. unlike Zimmerman...

No, we do not.

None of the articles makes any mention of the criminal history of Martin.

Plus, as a juvenile, it's quite likely that even if he had numerous criminal convictions it would be sealed.

So the truth is - we don't know. We don't know if Martin is as clean as the driven snow, or if he had half a dozen violence related convictions in the last 6 months.

As for the shooter being injured and losing a fight to a kid almost half his weight while holding a gun.. That is very suspect.. all we have is the word of a Policeman who's motivation is probably just trying to protect either the gated community or his own city from embarrassing and expensive litigation.. or it could just be the good ol' boy club doing what it's done for centuries down there..

No, we also have reports of witnesses to the fight.

Now - the police may be lying about what the witnesses said... but there are non-police witnesses to the altercation.

 

[aborgman]

Come on, if Martin had a record, it would have been made public by now.

As a juvenile - that is questionable.

 

[Gaius46]

Not being required to do something does not make the choice to do something any less provocative or stupid. The shooter is the one with a history of violence and law breaking, not the shotting victim. The shooter was also older and larger. Anything is possible, but there is a bit of bending over backwards here for Zimmerman. Finally, corrupt police departments are not unusual at all. They come in all colors and situations. The possibility of police corruption is not far fetched at all.

I agree. People do stupid but legal things all the time. My point though is that the behavior isn't criminal and may have no relevance whatsoever.

And I agree that police departments can be corrupt. Having grown up in NYC in the 60s and 70s and I maintain a very healthy distrust of police.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

As a juvenile - that is questionable.

Believe me, if there were something they could leak, it would have been leaked. It has certainly happened before.

 

[guroove]

The shooter was also injured, in a manner that would be involved in LOSING a fight, when the police arrived.

He could have easily done that to himself after having shot the kid and realizing all he had was a bag of skittles.

 

[aborgman]

Believe me, if there were something they could leak, it would have been leaked. It has certainly happened before.

So you're willing to assume, given no evidence, that the cops are corrupt here?

I'm not going to argue they aren't - but I think it definitely requires one of these:

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To come to ANY conclusion based on the current evidence.

 

[aborgman]

He could have easily done that to himself after having shot the kid and realizing all he had was a bag of skittles.

Yes ...and the witness reports saying they saw Zimmerman on the ground with Martin on top of him could be false.

...but I'm not willing to jump to that conclusion.

 

[guroove]

Yes ...and the witness reports saying they saw Zimmerman on the ground with Martin on top of him could be false.

...but I'm not willing to jump to that conclusion.

I'm sorry, but I missed that part. Can you link to it? Is it the same witness that said "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling"?

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Just for clarification, I'm not saying that I have any idea what happened. I find this case interesting, and I want to find out more before I make up my mind about anything.

 

[aborgman]

I'm sorry, but I missed that part. Can you link to it? Is it the same witness that said "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling"?

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I'll see if I can hunt down the article.


From the original article:

According to an incident report, Zimmerman, 28, called police that night, reporting that he saw a suspicious person. Sanford police dispatched a patrol car, but before that officer arrived, other 911 callers began to phone the agency, complaining of a fight.

and...

When police arrived after the shooting Zimmerman was bleeding from his nose, the back of his head and had grass on the back of his shirt. Other 911 callers reported a fight between the two before the shooting.

and...

FOX-Channel 35 reported that the shooter and Martin had been in a fistfight right before the killing.

I can't find the quote of the witness that said she saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, but I'll keep looking.



I will say the article you cited doesn't do much for the credibility of that witness...

"Actually officers who were canvassing the neighborhood looking for potential witnesses, the evening of the shooting, contacted her and she said she did not want to get involved," Morgenstern said.

"She did write a statement, for her roommate, and that was only after several attempts by officers who were asking for her information," Morgenstern said, adding that "the information she provided in her sworn statements… [was] consistent with the information Zimmerman provided."

Just for clarification, I'm not saying that I have any idea what happened. I find this case interesting, and I want to find out more before I make up my mind about anything.

Another interesting thing that has just been reported - apparently Zimmerman is Hispanic, not white.

 

[nutdog]

Another interesting thing that has just been reported - apparently Zimmerman is Hispanic, not white.

Link Removed

I've been wondering how this guy got into the good ol' white boy club. I haven't seen him at any of the meetings.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

So you're willing to assume, given no evidence, that the cops are corrupt here?

I'm not going to argue they aren't - but I think it definitely requires one of these:

[This invalid link has been removed]

To come to ANY conclusion based on the current evidence.

You act as if I if I have no life experience or practical knowledge of how the world can work. None of this happens in a vaccuum, and it is reasonable to say what could happen and what is likely based on experience. That is a primary aspect of investigation of all sorts and legal judgements.

No one is jumping to conclusions. If anything, you are going out of your way not to make any sort of conclusion yourself. I know my conclusion might be wrong, if it is, I will acknowledge new evidence and move on. In that same spirit, I cannot hold it against Zimmerman that he thought there might be something suspicious about Martin although he probably would not have seemed suspicious to me. What I fault was the fact that he sought him out with a gun when the police had already been called.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Link Removed

I've been wondering how this guy got into the good ol' white boy club. I haven't seen him at any of the meetings.

How do you know he is Hispanic? His skin tone means nothing. A whole lot of Florida Hispanics are quite white, and I have seen more than a few Non-Hispanic whites who Zimmerman's color. More to the point, being Hispanic (or African American for that matter,) certainly does not mean that he could not harbor racist notions about people of color.

 

[aborgman]

You act as if I if I have no life experience or practical knowledge of how the world can work. None of this happens in a vaccuum, and it is reasonable to say what could happen and what is likely based on experience. That is a primary aspect of investigation of all sorts and legal judgements.

So you're now arguing that police corruption in this case is not only possible (to which I agree) but likely?

Sorry, but one has to jump to conclusions to determine police corruption is "likely" in this case.

No one is jumping to conclusions. If anything, you are going out of your way not to make any sort of conclusion yourself.

Correct - because the preponderance of evidence at this point does not point to any particular conclusion.

I know my conclusion might be wrong, if it is, I will acknowledge new evidence and move on.

See - I'd rather not jump to conclusions with minimal evidence.

What I fault was the fact that he sought him out with a gun when the police had already been called.

We don't know that he "sought him out". We know he followed him. Nothing more than that. Anything else is, at best, an educated guess.