Another Shooting

[burk48237]

If Zimmerman assaulted the kid, then sure.

If not, and the kid initiated the physical fighting, then no.

For the record again, the Castle doctrine doesn't apply in this case, and Zimmerman couldn't have justifiably killed the teen just because he FELT threatened.

I'm going to assume that Florida has the "stand you ground" clause of self defense outside the home. That being said, if the kid didn't have a weapon, it will probably be very difficult for him to claim self defense in court, unless the kid was so much bigger than him, that he could have mauled him with his bare hands.

Even if he is not prosecuted by the police for this, Florida state law may or may not allow the family to sue Zimmerman in civil court. Some states say that if a shooting is declared justified by the police, the shooter is immune to any civil case.

I'm a big fan of concealed carry by civilians, but the way this guy acted is so far out of line with how a responsible carrier should act, at least with the current information.

Agreed, from what I know of the "Castle doctrine" it allows you to stand your ground if attacked. And I believe ( I know in MI) there is still the expectation that a firearm can only be used in response to a reasonable life threat. And while a weapon isn't required, certain extenuating circumstances are. The attacker must present a serious physical threat (being significantly physically larger or far younger like a older teenager attacking a senior citizen). Neither seems to apply in this case.

I don't think Zimmerman comes close to meeting the basic requirements from what I've read so far. But I still get the feeling we're missing something. How old and what size was the "kid"? A 17 year old "kid" who played football and evidently beat up Mr Zimmerman certainly had some anger issues. Why wasn't the kids first impulse to be on his cell phone calling 911 about the guy following him? Why was the kids first response evidently one of confrontation and anger?

Zimmerman obviously crossed the line and inserted himself in a situation that he had no business inserting himself in. This alone IMO makes him guilty of some form of homicide. He started the chain of events that led to the confrontation, no doubt. But, why would any culture be so worried about getting "dissed" that a teenager would physically assault someone for being followed? A tragedy was the result, this we can be sure of.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Yes.

If wannabe cop attempted to detain him in anyway, or otherwise threatened him - it's quite likely that under Florida law he would be within legal rights of "self defense" to beat the dude.

This goes back to my main point, Zimmerman intercepting Martin was needless since he had contacted the police, and they not only said they were coming, they told him to stay away. He had no legal authority to do anything, and Martin certainly had a right to resist what he felt was a threat to him also.

 

[aborgman]

This goes back to my main point, Zimmerman intercepting Martin was needless since he had contacted the police, and they not only said they were coming, they told him to stay away.

If that is your main point - I see the issue.

We DON"T KNOW if Zimmerman intercepted Martin.

Zimmerman may have just been following in his car and been attacked by Martin.

...and can you please quit saying that the "police" were contacted and the "police" said they were coming, and the "police" told him to stay away. That isn't what happened.

911 Dispatch was contacted. 911 dispatch said they were sending the police. 911 dispatch told him to stay away.

911 dispatchers are not police.

He had no legal authority to do anything,

...and we're now making the assumption that Zimmerman actually DID something. Which is an assertion not in evidence.

and Martin certainly had a right to resist what he felt was a threat to him also.

If Zimmerman had some sort of physical contact with Martin, attempted to detain him, or made physical threats - Martin certainly had a right to resist what he felt was a threat to him.

If all Zimmerman did was follow him in his car or on foot - Martin had zero right to resist what he felt was a threat to him, because legally it was in no way a threat.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Agreed, from what I know of the "Castle doctrine" it allows you to stand your ground if attacked. And I believe ( I know in MI) there is still the expectation that a firearm can only be used in response to a reasonable life threat. And while a weapon isn't required, certain extenuating circumstances are. The attacker must present a serious physical threat (being significantly physically larger or far younger like a older teenager attacking a senior citizen). Neither seems to apply in this case.

I don't think Zimmerman comes close to meeting the basic requirements from what I've read so far. But I still get the feeling we're missing something. How old and what size was the "kid"? A 17 year old "kid" who played football and evidently beat up Mr Zimmerman certainly had some anger issues. Why wasn't the kids first impulse to be on his cell phone calling 911 about the guy following him? Why was the kids first response evidently one of confrontation and anger?

Zimmerman obviously crossed the line and inserted himself in a situation that he had no business inserting himself in. This alone IMO makes him guilty of some form of homicide. He started the chain of events that led to the confrontation, no doubt. But, why would any culture be so worried about getting "dissed" that a teenager would physically assault someone for being followed? A tragedy was the result, this we can be sure of.

Burke, this is a kid from Miami. He may well have come from a pretty tough inner city community. His first response would have been to handle it himself. Given that Zimmerman is the older and more educated person, he should have used the wisdom one would hope he has to let the police do their job and stay away from Martin.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

If that is your main point - I see the issue.

We DON"T KNOW if Zimmerman intercepted Martin.

Zimmerman may have just been following in his car and been attacked by Martin.

...and can you please quit saying that the "police" were contacted and the "police" said they were coming, and the "police" told him to stay away. That isn't what happened.

911 Dispatch was contacted. 911 dispatch said they were sending the police. 911 dispatch told him to stay away.

911 dispatchers are not police.

So what if they aren't police? I think any reasonable person would feel that instructions from a dispatcher should be obeyed unless there was some compelling reason not to comply. Unless something truly compelling surfaces, the fact that the dispatcher is not an officer is irrelevant.

BTW, do you know for a fact that the dispatcher in that jurisdiction is not a LEO?

 

[sloasdaylight]

Burke, this is a kid from Miami. He may well have come from a pretty tough inner city community. His first response would have been to handle it himself. Given that Zimmerman is the older and more educated person, he should have used the wisdom one would hope he has to let the police do their job and stay away from Martin.

When you handle things yourself there are usually consequences for doing so. If Martin did decide to confront Zimmerman, then he's taking the issue into his own hands, which can have dire consequences.

As it stands now though, none of us knows what happened.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

When you handle things yourself there are usually consequences for doing so. If Martin did decide to confront Zimmerman, then he's taking the issue into his own hands, which can have dire consequences.

As it stands now though, none of us knows what happened.

We do know Zimmerman had the choice to follow the dispatcher's instructions to stay out of the situation. That is why I continue to say that no matter what Martin did, Zimmerman had the choice not to initiate any contact.

 

[aborgman]

So what if they aren't police?

Then they aren't police and don't have the legal authority of police.

I think any reasonable person would feel that instructions from a dispatcher should be obeyed unless there was some compelling reason not to comply.

I agree.

Unless something truly compelling surfaces, the fact that the dispatcher is not an officer is irrelevant.

Yes, it is.

Failure to comply with the directions of a police officer is a crime in pretty much every jurisdiction.

Failure to comply with the directions of a 911 dispatcher is not a crime anywhere I've ever heard of.

BTW, do you know for a fact that the dispatcher in that jurisdiction is not a LEO?

No, but it would be blindingly unusual for a 911 dispatcher to be a deputized police officer.

 

[aborgman]

We do know Zimmerman had the choice to follow the dispatcher's instructions to stay out of the situation. That is why I continue to say that no matter what Martin did, Zimmerman had the choice not to initiate any contact.

What if Zimmerman DIDN'T initiate contact?

What if Martin did?

Note - following someone is not "initiating contact".

 

[tZer]

We do know Martin had the choice to follow the dispatcher's instruction to stay out of the situation. That is why I continue to say that no matter what Martin did, Zimmerman had the choice not to initiate any contact.

You do mean "Zimmerman had the choice"... Right? Had Martin known what the dispatcher was advising, he'd have probably at least known what hell was going on and why this strange dude was dogging him...

In this speculative game, it's still very hard to make any kind of case that justifies Zimmerman's actions. Whether he was just an overly zealous NW Captain or a full on racist in NW Captain's clothing, he screwed the pooch in so many ways it's sad at best - at worst it's criminal.

It's very easy to see how racism and being emboldened by firepower can cloud a man's judgment. My bet is that if Zimmerman didn't own a gun, he'd have stayed put and the story - if any - would have been something along the lines of "Innocent Youth Detained and Questioned for Being Black and Armed with Skittles..."

It's more than likely that it wouldn't have hit the headlines at all - that the only reason Martin was 'suspicious' was indeed because Zimmerman was acting as a scared racist - and we wouldn't have anything to talk about here but there would be one particular gated community that quietly condoned racism as justification for stopping and questioning people.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

You do mean "Zimmerman had the choice"... Right? Had Martin known what the dispatcher was advising, he'd have probably at least known what hell was going on and why this strange dude was dogging him...

In this speculative game, it's still very hard to make any kind of case that justifies Zimmerman's actions. Whether he was just an overly zealous NW Captain or a full on racist in NW Captain's clothing, he screwed the pooch in so many ways it's sad at best - at worst it's criminal.

It's very easy to see how racism and being emboldened by firepower can cloud a man's judgment. My bet is that if Zimmerman didn't own a gun, he'd have stayed put and the story - if any - would have been something along the lines of "Innocent Youth Detained and Questioned for Being Black and Armed with Skittles..."

It's more than likely that it wouldn't have hit the headlines at all - that the only reason Martin was 'suspicious' was indeed because Zimmerman was acting as a scared racist - and we wouldn't have anything to talk about here but there would be one particular gated community that quietly condoned racism as justification for stopping and questioning people.

I meant Zimmerman, you posted before I could edit my post.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I was listening to MSNBC this evening. Zimmerman is 200 lbs. Trayvon Martin was 140. Zimmerman had a 9mm and the only thing the police found on Martin was Skittles.

Given that Zimmerman was much larger than Martin. I think this tends to suggest that Martin was more than likely not the aggressor against a larger grown man with a gun.

The police claim that they do not have probable cause to dispute Zimmerman's claim of self defense. Martin's family is suing the police to get all relevant records.

 

[fmoore200]

I have seen a smaller guy beat the crap out of a bigger guy... It's not about the size of the dog in the fight, and all that...

 

[El Beardo]

Benjamin Crump, the Martin family’s attorney, filed a public records lawsuit last week seeking the 911 recordings for the night of the shooting. Crump said people with access to the tapes told him Zimmerman made a comment about Martin’s race during the call and said he had no intention of letting the youth get away because, “they always get away.”

George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing

 

[onosson]

He hasn't even been arrested? That makes no sense!

 

[Dr. Cheese]

He hasn't even been arrested? That makes no sense!

The link you posted also shows that Zimmerman was once arrested for resisting arrest and battery against a police officer in 2005. The charges were dropped, but it shows a history or defying authority which was what he did not listen to the dispatcher. It is really starting to look like the police thought they could simply ignore this shooting, and people would just forget it.

 

[burk48237]

Burke, this is a kid from Miami. He may well have come from a pretty tough inner city community. His first response would have been to handle it himself. Given that Zimmerman is the older and more educated person, he should have used the wisdom one would hope he has to let the police do their job and stay away from Martin.

While I'm not disagreeing that Zimmerman clearly followed the wrong course of action, I wonder how many "tough inner city kids" would be alive today if they didn't decide to "handle it themselves"?

I was listening to MSNBC this evening. Zimmerman is 200 lbs. Trayvon Martin was 140. Zimmerman had a 9mm and the only thing the police found on Martin was Skittles.

This fact REALLY hurts Zimmermans self defense claims. IF the kid was smaller and had no weapon, legitimately fearing for your life becomes very hard to prove.

Given that Zimmerman was much larger than Martin. I think this tends to suggest that Martin was more than likely not the aggressor against a larger grown man with a gun.

Given the other relevant facts I doubt Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun until too late. Its still possible he was the aggressor. But since he wasn't in the act of a felony, who the aggressor was is irrelevant. Self defense still hinges on one issue, fearing for your life. And justifiable use of a firearm still hinges on the permit holder avoiding confrontation when possible.

 

[mcnach]

Self defense still hinges on one issue, fearing for your life. And justifiable use of a firearm still hinges on the permit holder avoiding confrontation when possible.

The fact he got out of the car means he did not "avoid confrontation when possible"...

 

[aborgman]

The fact he got out of the car means he did not "avoid confrontation when possible"...

We at this point don't know that he "got out of the car".

He may have been forcibly pulled from the car.

Or he may have jumped out brandishing his pistol.

We just don't know at this point.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

We at this point don't know that he "got out of the car".

He may have been forcibly pulled from the car.

Or he may have jumped out brandishing his pistol.

We just don't know at this point.

Honestly, if Zimmerman had been pulled out of the car, I am pretty sure the local police would have at least informally leaked that information by now just to keep themselves from looking bad.