Another Shooting

[EBodious]

i think the idea of arguing that zimmerman willingly chose to put himself in harms way by following the kid when instructed to stay out of it would be really interesting in court. as a criminal justice major and as a trained neighborhood watch captain, zimmerman, IMHO, couldn't argue that he didn't know any better. i don't know for fact, but i strongly believe that the cops in charge of training neighborhood watch groups must emphasize 'don't get involved; let us do our job.' they must stress proper boundaries, mustn't they? which leaves arguing that the act of following is in itself is an act of confrontation.

all in all it is tragic. the truth may never really be known. certainly only one side of the story by those involved will ever be known. i wonder if there are witnesses who heard the confrontation or only saw (thru a window perhaps) the confrontation after it got physical. it seems like both guys were confrontational and willing to back it up. and that will always allow a situation to get worse.

i grew up as a white, middle class kid in suburban new york. my mom (who is a worrier) ingrained in me that people get shot over parking spaces in the city. and that you never know the sanity of a person you confront (or what they are packing). i can't know first hand the dynamics involved in why this kid felt threatened and chose confrontation, but it all seems unnecessary. i feel for the little brother who watched his bro go to the store to buy him skittles and get shot by a white wannabe cop. that has got to screw him up to some degree.

i hope this doesn't read like i am zimmerman's side on this cause that is not how i am leaning. its just all too bad.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

i think the idea of arguing that zimmerman willingly chose to put himself in harms way by following the kid when instructed to stay out of it would be really interesting in court. as a criminal justice major and as a trained neighborhood watch captain, zimmerman, IMHO, couldn't argue that he didn't know any better. i don't know for fact, but i strongly believe that the cops in charge of training neighborhood watch groups must emphasize 'don't get involved; let us do our job.' they must stress proper boundaries, mustn't they? which leaves arguing that the act of following is in itself is an act of confrontation.

all in all it is tragic. the truth may never really be known. certainly only one side of the story by those involved will ever be known. i wonder if there are witnesses who heard the confrontation or only saw (thru a window perhaps) the confrontation after it got physical. it seems like both guys were confrontational and willing to back it up. and that will always allow a situation to get worse.

i grew up as a white, middle class kid in suburban new york. my mom (who is a worrier) ingrained in me that people get shot over parking spaces in the city. and that you never know the sanity of a person you confront (or what they are packing). i can't know first hand the dynamics involved in why this kid felt threatened and chose confrontation, but it all seems unnecessary. i feel for the little brother who watched his bro go to the store to buy him skittles and get shot by a white wannabe cop. that has got to screw him up to some degree.

i hope this doesn't read like i am zimmerman's side on this cause that is not how i am leaning. its just all too bad.

You don't sound like you defending Zimmerman at all. Frankly, I can't blame Trayvon for fighting because without a badge, how does if Zimmerman isn't some serial killer or hate group member? If Zimmerman had some sort of ID, it would change things, but it is still a needless confrontation because the police were on their way.

 

[guy n. cognito]

i feel for the little brother who watched his bro go to the store to buy him skittles and get shot by a white wannabe cop. that has got to screw him up to some degree.

I would think it would be a pretty dramatic experience regardless of race.....

 

[tZer]

This is my point exactly although I pretty much left the racial aspect out.

Well you are a bit of a lighten rod on these things and you are doing a good job of trying to see it from a racially neutral angle. More power to you.

Based on the limited info we have, it's very hard - even for those out there who don't think race issues are as prominent as other think - to not see how race seems to be at the center of this.

But - as it's been said - we don't have all the fact and as I said, it's fun to speculate.

If I had to lay a bet - race is indeed dead center here. I also would bet that Zimmerman, while on the surface my not appear to be a racist, does indeed have deep seated fears of people who are not white - especially at night - in 'his' neighborhood - a place where 'those people' shouldn't be out walking around - especially at night.

Hard not to go there - as much as I try not to.

 

[EBodious]

Frankly, I can't blame Trayvon for fighting because without a badge, how does if Zimmerman isn't some serial killer or hate group member? If Zimmerman had some sort of ID, it would change things, but it is still a needless confrontation because the police were on their way.

which raises the question did zimmerman identify himself? did he say he was carrying a gun? i would think those are two very important things to bring up if you are gonna enter into a confrontation in your role as neighborhood watch captain. especially if want your authority to be respected. don't cops have to i.d. themselves, if it is not already obvious, so the other person knows they are dealing with law enforcement?

I would think it would be a pretty dramatic experience regardless of race.....

definitely. and the race factor just adds another layer to the trauma, IMO. i don't know how the little brother will internalize this experience, but i imagine it will effect his understanding of racial dynamics in his society for the worse.

 

[Steve]

so much of a tragedy for everyone involved. IME anytime there is some sort of conflict, there are numerous opportunities missed by both parties to de-escalate.

What do you suppose would have happened if neighborhood watch guy had pulled up, rolled down the window and said, "Hey, I'm neighborhood watch guy, can I give you a lift back to your house?"

You can establish identity and residence with being all Mr. Macho

What do you suppose would have happened if when questioned about his identity he had just said, "I'm coming back from the store and I live at......without going all militant and Malcom X.

IT AIN'T ALWAYS ABOUT RACE

I'm not sure if the kid was killed by a bullet or testosteron.

 

[Phil Smith]

I would think it would be a pretty dramatic experience regardless of race.....

This is true, but no one said anything about race with respect to the loss people feel when someone is killed. If you don' t think race is a factor in this scenario, I would say you have problems seeing elephants in the middle of the room.

 

[Phil Smith]

so much of a tragedy for everyone involved. IME anytime there is some sort of conflict, there are numerous opportunities missed by both parties to de-escalate.

What do you suppose would have happened if neighborhood watch guy had pulled up, rolled down the window and said, "Hey, I'm neighborhood watch guy, can I give you a lift back to your house?"

You can establish identity and residence with being all Mr. Macho

Why would he get in a car with someone he didn't know being in walking distance of his destination? I think there is and assumption that the teen needs to justify he belongs there and is free to walk in that neighborhood.

What do you suppose would have happened if when questioned about his identity he had just said, "I'm coming back from the store and I live at......without going all militant and Malcom X.

First of all you don't know that he didn't say that because you weren't there and therefore don't know how the conversation went and how it escalated into a fight and then into a killing. If you're going home and someone is following you and then you question them, are you being aggressive? If you are, what is the person that's following you being, especially when they are armed?

IT AIN'T ALWAYS ABOUT RACE

I'm not sure if the kid was killed by a bullet or testosteron.

Except for when it is.

 

[El Beardo]

I'm not sure if the kid was killed by a bullet or testosteron.

I'm guessing the autopsy report will point to the former. I know we don't have all the details but what exactly is suspicious about someone walking in a neighborhood anyway? The thought of calling the cops to report that seems completely ridiculous to me. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea for the community crime watch to carry some pepper spray or maybe a taser. Instead a kid armed with candy is now dead. I'm curious to read more details as they are released but if it turns out that, prior to their confrontation, this kid was simply walking home in a gated community. Yea, that tells me that race played a big part in Zimmerman's decision to alert the cops, continue to follow said "suspicious person" and ultimately draw his weapon and of course shoot him. I don't want to hear about Zimmerman feeling threatened either(Even though Florida law requires little more to shoot someone). He called the cops and he was in his car. At that point the situation seems completely avoidable to me. Which makes it seem even more sad. Like most have already mentioned, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[aborgman]

First of all you don't know that he didn't say that because you weren't there and therefore don't know how the conversation went and how it escalated into a fight and then into a killing.

Correct.

We don't know if Zimmerman confronted Martin and tried to detain him, or if Zimmerman was just following in his car and Martin pulled him out the window and started beating him. Or any of a million other possibilities.

If you're going home and someone is following you and then you question them, are you being aggressive?

No.

If you're going home and someone is following you and then you beat them, just for following you - that would be aggressive.

 

[guy n. cognito]

This is true, but no one said anything about race with respect to the loss people feel when someone is killed. If you don' t think race is a factor in this scenario, I would say you have problems seeing elephants in the middle of the room.

Actually, yes, they did. EBodius specifically referred to the race of the shooter regarding the feelings of the little brother. I was commenting on his post. I did not, however, opine in any way regarding the role race may have played in this scenario.

 

[EBodious]

yes i did.

 

[Staccato]

There was a an alleged confrontation, and the shooter is reported to have defended himself.

Even if the 'kid' threw a punch, or three, deadly force was not present from anything I've read so far.

What a tragedy!

 

[sloasdaylight]

There was a an alleged confrontation, and the shooter is reported to have defended himself.

Even if the 'kid' threw a punch, or three, deadly force was not present from anything I've read so far.

What a tragedy!

Deadly force doesn't necessarily need to be present in the form of a gun or knife in order for one to use a firearm in self defense.

 

[EBodious]

if florida law makes it so easy to claim self-defense in the face of a threat. could it be argued that trayvon felt threatened and was defending himself?

 

[Sav'nBass]

This would have been interesting if the black teen had a gun and shot the "suspicious" white guy following him.

Indeed.. but at the very least he would have been brought up on gun charges .. but this man needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. He called the police ... the police told him to let them handle it... He chose not to. At the very least manslaughter which in Fla is a 15 year sentence.

i think the idea of arguing that zimmerman willingly chose to put himself in harms way by following the kid when instructed to stay out of it would be really interesting in court. as a criminal justice major and as a trained neighborhood watch captain, zimmerman, IMHO, couldn't argue that he didn't know any better. i don't know for fact, but i strongly believe that the cops in charge of training neighborhood watch groups must emphasize 'don't get involved; let us do our job.' they must stress proper boundaries, mustn't they? which leaves arguing that the act of following is in itself is an act of confrontation.

all in all it is tragic. the truth may never really be known. certainly only one side of the story by those involved will ever be known. i wonder if there are witnesses who heard the confrontation or only saw (thru a window perhaps) the confrontation after it got physical. it seems like both guys were confrontational and willing to back it up. and that will always allow a situation to get worse.

i grew up as a white, middle class kid in suburban new york. my mom (who is a worrier) ingrained in me that people get shot over parking spaces in the city. and that you never know the sanity of a person you confront (or what they are packing). i can't know first hand the dynamics involved in why this kid felt threatened and chose confrontation, but it all seems unnecessary. i feel for the little brother who watched his bro go to the store to buy him skittles and get shot by a white wannabe cop. that has got to screw him up to some degree.

i hope this doesn't read like i am zimmerman's side on this cause that is not how i am leaning. its just all too bad.

+1

 

[Dr. Cheese]

if florida law makes it so easy to claim self-defense in the face of a threat. could it be argued that trayvon felt threatened and was defending himself?

I think that would be a good point to make by a prosecutor in a criminal trial, and by Martin's family in a civil suit. If a man with a point is allowed to shoot an unarmed man, certainly an unarmed man can use his fists when confronted by a stranger, armed or unarmed.

 

[sloasdaylight]

if florida law makes it so easy to claim self-defense in the face of a threat. could it be argued that trayvon felt threatened and was defending himself?

If Zimmerman assaulted the kid, then sure.

If not, and the kid initiated the physical fighting, then no.

For the record again, the Castle doctrine doesn't apply in this case, and Zimmerman couldn't have justifiably killed the teen just because he FELT threatened.

 

[pin_head_47]

I'm going to assume that Florida has the "stand you ground" clause of self defense outside the home. That being said, if the kid didn't have a weapon, it will probably be very difficult for him to claim self defense in court, unless the kid was so much bigger than him, that he could have mauled him with his bare hands.

Even if he is not prosecuted by the police for this, Florida state law may or may not allow the family to sue Zimmerman in civil court. Some states say that if a shooting is declared justified by the police, the shooter is immune to any civil case.

I'm a big fan of concealed carry by civilians, but the way this guy acted is so far out of line with how a responsible carrier should act, at least with the current information.

 

[aborgman]

if florida law makes it so easy to claim self-defense in the face of a threat. could it be argued that trayvon felt threatened and was defending himself?

Yes.

If wannabe cop attempted to detain him in anyway, or otherwise threatened him - it's quite likely that under Florida law he would be within legal rights of "self defense" to beat the dude.