Another Shooting

[Deleted member 92857]

I do know what was in Zimmerman's head - because it came out of his mouth. "Self-Defense" - was in his head.

Now - you extrapolate the logical implications of why he said that and let me know why you think what I am saying is wrong.

And what am I adding that the media hasn't reported?

I missed the part where the media reported what he was hoping. Can you help me by citing a source?

What he said and what he was hoping may or may not be the same thing. If he has been quoted as saying "I was hoping...." I'll stand corrected.

Then you go on to describe what happened between Zimmerman and Martin during the seconds prior to the shooting, with a post that resounds with certainty. And I believe that has yet to be determined with certainty, in spite of 841 posts on talkbass and hours of media speculation.

Zimmerman needlessly caused Martin's death. Whether it's murder 1,2,3, manslaughter, or some other charge depends on what happened in those seconds. If I'm on the jury and somebody shows me evidence that Zimmerman pulled the trigger with no provocation and no reason to suspect his life was being threatened, and / or the injuries he sustained were self inflicted, I'd vote murder 1 and the death sentence. If not, I'm not filling in any blanks. I think some are only too anxious to fill in those blanks.

I'm not on Zimmerman's side here. I don't think he can or should walk by any stretch of the imagination. But he should get his day in court, and a fair trial, by an impartial jury of his peers.

Where is that jury going to come from? Did anyone ever think that the crowds, the protests going nationwide is Zimmerman's defense lawyers dream come true?

 

[El Beardo]

You're all going to like this. My main man Geraldo has it figured out for us.

Wow, Geraldo.... wow.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

EVERY human beings brain works like that.

Ok

 

[JAUQO III-X]

I also think in that crowd there are more than a few who are nuts who just want Zimmerman dead.

That doesn't make them nuts at all.

 

[Floyd Eye]

That doesn't make them nuts at all.

No, it only makes them nuts if they are the same people that oppose other convicted murderers, particularly ones who are the same race as they are, getting the death penalty.

 

[Dr_Funkdamental]

As for the crowd, maybe my comments did PRE-JUDGE them

Theres no maybe. You just dont like to own up. Its cool.


It REALLY trips me out how ppl on one end are attacking ppls speculations on Zimmerman yet underhandedly throw all these super hypothetical assumptions out there towards the crowd. How are you saying wait for the evidence, wait for the trial, "you dont know what he was thinking", etc., yet spout off all these other "probabilities" with so much confidence?

 

[tZer]

At the very least we have a ton of audio of Zimmerman, other 911 callers, background audio, Zimmerman's own words, the words of the LEO's (for whatever THAT's worth) - a literal script by which we can draw some pretty clear conclusions about what was going on in his simple mind. The conclusions I am coming to are not without foundation. It's a given that I don't know the specific words he used in his own mind to describe to himself what he was hoping or thinking - but what he did and what came out of his own mouth give me more than enough to extrapolate.

If you believe a person who just ran down, (maybe) fought with and ultimately shot and killed another person wasn't thinking when he told the cops it was self-defense that he hopes the cops believe him - just because you can't read minds and construct a literal, word for word record of his thoughts - well, OK.

 

[Dr_Funkdamental]

At the very least we have a ton of audio of Zimmerman, other 911 callers, background audio, Zimmerman's own words, the words of the LEO's (for whatever THAT's worth) - a literal script by which we can draw some pretty clear conclusions about what was going on in his simple mind. The conclusions I am coming to are not without foundation. It's a given that I don't know the specific words he used in his own mind to describe to himself what he was hoping or thinking - but what he did and what came out of his own mouth give me more than enough to extrapolate.

If you believe a person who just ran down, (maybe) fought with and ultimately shot and killed another person wasn't thinking when he told the cops it was self-defense that he hopes the cops believe him - just because you can't read minds and construct a literal, word for word record of his thoughts - well, OK.

+1. Yet they see a group of angry ppl then all kinds of unfounded speculations arise.

 

[electracoyote]

It REALLY trips me out how ppl on one end are attacking ppls speculations on Zimmerman yet underhandedly throw all these super hypothetical assumptions out there towards the crowd. How are you saying wait for the evidence, wait for the trial, "you dont know what he was thinking", etc., yet spout off all these other "probabilities" with so much confidence?

Man, I'll be honest, I'm one of those people who sees an angry mob and jumps to conclusions, and I don't care what color the mob is. But it usually pays to take a step back and look at the facts. When I saw those pictures of the crowds gathering, I thought the worst. But then I made it a point to learn as much as I could about this situation. The community at large should be very concerned; this should not be a race-based concern. As a white guy, if I lived in that area, and saw this law being mis-applied in this way, I'd be worried. Sheesh, what if some lunatic didn't like my looks and chased me down and shot me, then claimed he was defending himself? Obviously, it's not so far-fetched.

Now, later, when law enforcement starts to explain its actions this may change, but for now I'm hoping these cops didn't act on some racial bias. That would torque up the mob exponentially.

I also think Smokin' is right that, if the eventual verdict and punishment doesn't please everyone, more law-breaking is not the answer. I hope that doesn't happen, but there are reasons to speculate that it could, mainly a loop-hole infested law poorly and possibly unevenly enforced and a sick-o perpetrator. This case could go so many ways it's impossible to tell.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

Theres no maybe. You just dont like to own up. Its cool.

Jesus, do I have to break out a whip and flog myself?

Anything short of total agreement with the herd seems to result in this kind of response.

Moooooooo......

 

[tZer]

I also think Smokin' is right that, if the eventual verdict and punishment doesn't please everyone, more law-breaking is not the answer. I hope that doesn't happen, but there are reasons to speculate that it could, mainly a loop-hole infested law poorly and possibly unevenly enforced and a sick-o perpetrator. This case could go so many ways it's impossible to tell.

Of course that possible. It's even understandable, as bad as it would be for it to get ugly. But it's not inevitable. Treating it as if it is is insulting.

It significantly underscores how important it is for the police to maintain a significantly higher standard than they obviously seem to do and how horribly bad it can get because they obviously don't.

I think all the little instances of them 'blowing off' their responsibilities have simply never bitten them in the ass like this - and that they never really thought it would. The degree of casualness they seem to have exhibited speaks volumes about their collective mindset.

Again - we have clear actions (rather INactions) on their part that PROVE this. No reasonable person can see how they handled this and conclude anything less. Whether race was at the core or if it was just laziness and ineptitude, does that really even matter now? Those people we trust to protect us are apparently not all that concerned about who they are protecting. You can't help but wonder how many other Trayvons are out there that didn't get discovered.

 

[Dr_Funkdamental]

electracoyote youre right. Im just saying you cant argue about speculation while at the same time MAKING speculation. Pretty hypocritical.

 

[tZer]

Jesus, do I have to break out a whip and flog myself?

Anything short of total agreement with the herd will result in this kind of response.

Moooooooo......

No - don't flog. No, we're not sheep or cattle. No, you don't have to agree.

I really do get the gist of what you've been saying. But you end up mixing it with so much other stuff that I cannot get on board with that it's hard to agree with you without significant qualification.

No worries... I am sure we'll all have more concrete stuff to argue about soon enough. I really don't expect you to agree with me. I think there are some conclusions you can draw - you think I'm overreaching. Cool.

 

[Dr_Funkdamental]

Jesus, do I have to break out a whip and flog myself?

Anything short of total agreement with the herd seems to result in this kind of response.

Moooooooo......

You can disagree on anything. But when you make a jacked up statement and get called on it, "maybe" is a brush off. You did pre-judge them, just as you claim others are pre-judging Zimmerman. Either you did or you didnt. Ive seen many others apologize for bad assumptions or statements. You chose not to, just argue another point. Thus why I said, hey, its cool.

 

[electracoyote]

Whether race was at the core or if it was just laziness and ineptitude, does that really even matter now?

Good post, but this part stood out.

I think it's fair to say, to some of us, whether or not race was at the core matters very much. I'd actually be a bit relieved if we discover this department was just inept and were poorly trained or unqualified to make judgement calls and apply the law appropriately. I'd be much more disappointed and even disgusted to learn race was at the core.

If Geraldo can blame the hoodie with a straight face, it demonstrates just how superficial and irrationally biased some people can be. Let's hope these cops were just stupid.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Listening to MSNBC this morning, I just heard that a record has been found of Trayvon Martin calling 911 the night of the shooting.

 

[spade2you]

Very heated debate. Too bad so many folks are extremely upset despite a lack of cold hard facts. Very tragic and I'm equally disappointed that the media is pandering to something close to mob mentality.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

Well, I've learned many thing during this thread, and I'd like to recap.

1. Human nature is such that individuals in large angry crowds can easily get caught up and do things they wouldn't normally do. Except the crowd in Sanford Florida. And I thought all men were created equal. Silly me.


EDIT: And I apologize to Dr. Funkdamental. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, .......

2. Speculating about behavior will draw the wrath of Talkbass, but speaking with certainty about the hopes and mental processes of a person miles away that your only knowledge of has been attained through the media is perfectly acceptable.

3 The Constitution of the United States of America can be parsed and selectively trashed or held as sacred truth depending on the whim of Talkbass. Example: The presumption of innocent until proven guilty in a court of law has been thoroughly trashed in this thread, to the point that one post suggested that it would be great if another vigilante killing took place. On the other hand, the right of the people to assemble peaceably has held up (but I suspect that if the reason for the assembly was distasteful to the TalkBass masses, this could change).

4. When one posts in Talkbass, one gives license to the TalkBass masses to infer with certainty the posters entire philosophy of life. The assertion that certain rights and due process must be granted to everyone can and will be used to paint the poster as crusader for justice or the epitome of evil. Not just a person with an opposing idea. So there should be no exploration of possibilities that counter those held as true by the masses regardless of evidence or lack thereof.

5 . If you don't participate in "piling on" the bad guy, you are on his side.

Thanks for the education. I need to make sure I keep these things in mind when I post in the future.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

You can disagree on anything. But when you make a jacked up statement and get called on it, "maybe" is a brush off. You did pre-judge them, just as you claim others are pre-judging Zimmerman. Either you did or you didnt. Ive seen many others apologize for bad assumptions or statements. You chose not to, just argue another point. Thus why I said, hey, its cool.

So I do need to get the whip out and flog myself, "maybe I was wrong" is not good enough for you.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

Very heated debate. Too bad so many folks are extremely upset despite a lack of cold hard facts. Very tragic and I'm equally disappointed that the media is pandering to something close to mob mentality.

I'm here to tell you, this kind of thinking is not welcome in this thread. Cold hard facts are selectively deemed required or unnecessary. And warm fuzzy facts based on the posters perception are rarely questioned. And I can show you the burn marks on my ass where I got flamed for using the word mob; admittedly I used it with another word, but a specific post chastized me for using mob applied to what was "just" an angry, shouting crowd.

Such posts will will land you in the "Zimmerman fan club" despite any of your own words to the contrary.

Free advice, worth what you paid for it.