Another Shooting

[Deleted member 92857]

wowzers. smokin toaster looks to curry sympathy for GZ because of the possible commission of thought crimes.

Absurd. I'm saying he gets a day in court. And he get's the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

Wanna talk about critical thinking again?

And you said you were going to ignore me. Please don't make promises you can't keep.

 

[tZer]

I wasn't addressing the entire article, only two words; one phrase. I was called out for the use of the phrase, and how insensitive it made me. Skins can be very thick one moment, and very thin the next. The term lynch means "a form of extralegal judgment and punishment, usually by killing"

Lynch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Talkbasser has spoken of killing Zimmerman. Do you really think the crowdS that are angry and screaming don't contain people who feel the same?

Just an observation, Toaster - many of the things you are getting upset about start with your own misunderstanding of some key factors. Yes, the words may seem the same but you were not called out on 'the words' - it was the words and their context.

You seem to think that it was just the fact that you uttered the same words that were later found in that headline - and that's not why what you said was considered offensive AND that's why it's later use in the headline wasn't.

It's the context - not the words.

 

[onosson]

Do you really think the crowdS that are angry and screaming don't contain people who feel the same?

They very well might - I can only comment on what people are actually saying or doing.

You calling a crowd of people a lynch mob because some of them might be thinking about killing someone, is very different from speaking of an individual being a solo lynch mob after he has already killed someone.

Edit: If anyone had likened Zimmerman to a lynch mob on the day before Martin's death, that would have been wrong for exactly the same reason.

 

[cheezewiz]

This speaks volumes. It's pretty hard to claim self-defense when you stalk someone and chase them down, when you've got 60 pounds on the kid and a hand gun, and when you have a history of paranoid schizophrenic behavior toward strangers in your neighborhood.

We call it "Make My Day" in Colorado, but again, it is meant to protect people who are clearly defending themselves and their homes. I believe most of these laws have this as their basis.

The defense should be interesting, but unfortunately we have to peel away the layers of law enforcement ineptitude first.

I hadn't heard this before, but this is going to end up being the ONLY defense Zimmerman is going to have. I bet he'll cop insanity.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

I haven't convicted him, but he needs to be brought to trial and prosecuted,

Why? The rest of your sentence reads:

he stalked a person, chased him and killed him. I also think that's what most people want, so I don't see why you have dreams of lynching dancing around in your head.

You've said you want him brought to trial and convicted him in the same sentence. Why bother with the formality and details of a trial?

 

[aborgman]

My brain doesn't work like that at all.

EVERY human beings brain works like that.

 

[electracoyote]

I hadn't heard this before, but this is going to end up being the ONLY defense Zimmerman is going to have. I bet he'll cop insanity.

Given his recorded history of 911 calls and general creepy behavior for the entire neighborhood to witness over a lengthy period of time, I honestly can't believe he went for self-defense and didn't jump immediately to insanity as a defense.

I guess his lawyers will straighten it all out for us. He's got his due process coming, but when it becomes clear he does not qualify for protection under the law, I predict this guy is toast.

 

[Phil Smith]

Why? The rest of your sentence reads:



You've said you want him brought to trial and convicted him in the same sentence. Why bother with the formality and details of a trial?

Regardless of what I think, he needs to be tried so that he can have an opportunity to defend his version of what he has said has happened. That's the way the system works, whether I think he's guilty or you think he's innocent and want to have his baby.

 

[electracoyote]

Why? The rest of your sentence reads:



You've said you want him brought to trial and convicted him in the same sentence. Why bother with the formality and details of a trial?

You know Smokin', on one hand I see your point.

And when I look at a throng of people calling for someone's head, the word "angry mob" definitely pops into my head.

I can only hope that any person in that mob knows better than to make statements or behave in a way that could be perceived as a "lynch mob." I hope everyone in that angry mob understands that Zimmerman, as repugnant as he may appear, deserves due process.

I am going to hold onto the perception that these people are angry because the police, who are supposed to protect us, made a serious error in judgment while determining what Zimmerman did, his history, and what protections (or lack thereof) he had.

 

[nutdog]

 

[tZer]

Why? The rest of your sentence reads:



You've said you want him brought to trial and convicted him in the same sentence. Why bother with the formality and details of a trial?

You have a real talent for finding 'words' and ignoring context, toaster!

What Zimmerman did is a matter of record. He did chase down Trayvon - he did shoot him - he did kill him. No one, including Zimmerman, denies any of that. No one here is 'convicting him' - everyone is pointing out the fact that he did do what he did do - and that he, himself, (by your understanding of things) has also 'convicted' him.

You see... He DID do all that. It's perfectly fair for people to discuss this tragedy and to say that - because it's not disputed and is entirely true.

What Zimmerman was hoping is that because there was no one to see what happened, that he could BS everyone into believing he HAD to kill him and was justified - hence "self-defense".

Unfortunately for Zimmerman, he was wrong and self-defense is impossible for him to claim. Fortunately for Zimmerman, the local LEO's were one notch south of the keystone kops and may have ended up creating a situation that somehow allows him to get away with it.

 

[peledog]

Invalid Link Removed

A good read.

 

[Dr_Funkdamental]

Just an observation, Toaster - many of the things you are getting upset about start with your own misunderstanding of some key factors. Yes, the words may seem the same but you were not called out on 'the words' - it was the words and their context.

You seem to think that it was just the fact that you uttered the same words that were later found in that headline - and that's not why what you said was considered offensive AND that's why it's later use in the headline wasn't.

It's the context - not the words.

Thats all Im sayin.

You know Smokin', on one hand I see your point.

And when I look at a throng of people calling for someone's head, the word "angry mob" definitely pops into my head.

I can only hope that any person in that mob knows better than to make statements or behave in a way that could be perceived as a "lynch mob." I hope everyone in that angry mob understands that Zimmerman, as repugnant as he may appear, deserves due process.

I am going to hold onto the perception that these people are angry because the police, who are supposed to protect us, made a serious error in judgment while determining what Zimmerman did, his history, and what protections (or lack thereof) he had.

That is almost as much of the reason that they are angry than Zimmerman shooting Trayvon. Its not JUST about Zimmerman. Its about the whole issue. I actually have friends down there protesting in Fla. Understand that all the ppl down there arent some community bystanders that grabbed pitch forks and bats and said "Lets get em!". They are lawyers, doctors, public officials, knowledgeable of the laws, and are demanding the right thing be done. And as many on this thread (like cheesewiz whos opinion I respect on this because hes a long time officer) have witnessed, the PD has been royally screwing up since the start.

 

[aborgman]

That is almost as much of the reason that they are angry than Zimmerman shooting Trayvon. Its not JUST about Zimmerman. Its about the whole issue. I actually have friends down there protesting in Fla. Understand that all the ppl down there arent some community bystanders that grabbed pitch forks and bats and said "Lets get em!". They are lawyers, doctors, public officials, knowledgeable of the laws, and are demanding the right thing be done.

I think the great great majority of folks in the crowd are there demanding the right thing be done.

I also think in that crowd there are more than a few who are nuts who just want Zimmerman dead.

And as many on this thread (like cheesewiz whos opinion I respect on this because hes a long time officer) have witnessed, the PD has been royally screwing up since the start.

They've definitely screwed the pooch - the question going forward is whether it's a matter of malice or incompetence.

 

[tZer]

If people weren't protesting - and angry - and demanding that justice be done (meaning HE GETS HIS DAY IN COURT, NOT SUMMARILY EXECUTED/LYNCHED - OK?) - then I would be very worried about our country.

Angry? Hell yes. At Zimmerman? Hell yes. At the SPD? HELL YES!! Angry as hell and justifiably so.

For the record - there are not only people, angry people who probably do want to just have Zimmerman executed - there are also angry people who think he's getting railroaded. There are angry people all over the place here.

But until any of those angry people actually do start calling for him to be brought to them so they can kill him, calling angry people a 'lynch mob' is inaccurate and inflammatory rhetoric - more designed to curry sympathy for SFP and/or Zimmerman than to genuinely express concern about the nature of an angry crowd's intent.

Characterizing the legitimately angry crowd of people as a lynch mob implies lawlessness. The actual fact is that the crowds are the epitome of lawfulness. They are exercising their rights as guaranteed by the Constitution. Calling them lynch mobs implies they are breaking laws - period. They are not - they should not be called that - that dismisses the very real reasons why they are exercising their right to assemble and express their anger and contempt.

 

[electracoyote]

That is almost as much of the reason that they are angry than Zimmerman shooting Trayvon.

Well said, and I was amiss in not saying there is obvious anger over the apparantly senseless killing as well. But there is equal anger and confusion over the process.

I would think Black Americans would be especially sensitive to even appearing to be part of a mindless lynch mob, and I do not get that impression in the slightest about the gatherings and protests ongoing in Florida. I hope it stays that way.

I think sometimes people see an angry mob and think the worst and most stereotypical things about the mob mentality in general. At least in this case, the anger and peaceful (yet persistent) protests are easily justified.

If I was Trayvon Martin's father, if this were my son (who is 17), I would be beside myself with grief and anger. That he can even make cogent statements to the press represents unbelievable strength.

Thinking about it like that can choke you up.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

What Zimmerman was hoping...

Now you've professed to know what was in his head, as well as details that have not even been offered by the media.Think that might be a stretch?

You could be right. But you don't know. I don't know. Nobody knows. But that doesn't stop everyone from making statements like I quoted.

All you or Zimmerman or anyone else can hope for is that there is evidence presented that can persuade a jury beyond a reasonable (not beyond a shadow of) a doubt as to what happened.

 

[Dr_Funkdamental]

I think sometimes people see an angry mob and think the worst and most stereotypical things about the mob mentality in general.

You dont say...

 

[tZer]

Now you've professed to know what was in his head, as well as details that have not even been offered by the media.Think that might be a stretch?

You could be right. But you don't know. I don't know. Nobody knows. But that doesn't stop everyone from making statements like I quoted.

All you or Zimmerman or anyone else can hope for is that there is evidence presented that can persuade a jury beyond a reasonable (not beyond a shadow of) a doubt as to what happened.

I do know what was in Zimmerman's head - because it came out of his mouth. "Self-Defense" - was in his head.

Now - you extrapolate the logical implications of why he said that and let me know why you think what I am saying is wrong.

And what am I adding that the media hasn't reported?

 

[Deleted member 92857]

I think a lot of folks have missed the fact that I've said many times I have no doubt Zimmerman wrongfully pursued Martin, the recordings show it. I have no doubt Zimmerman shot Martin, he admitted it. He's on the hook for that. What the charges should be, I don't know. There was an exchange between them, to what degree Zimmerman thought his life was threatened, I don't know, and nobody in this thread knows, in spite of all the testifying and affirmations and "knowledge" gained from reading the media, watching TV news, and geeze, let us not forget the infallible World Wide Web.

As for the crowd, maybe my comments did PRE-JUDGE them. As some have posted, it's almost a sure bet that some have a "kill the SOB" mentality. Some are certainly legally and calmly seeking justice. All I'm saying is an angry, chanting crowd urging more people to come out and be angry and chant with them could be kindling for the spark of ANOTHER vigilante.

And here's some food for thought: If some evidence comes to light that allows Zimmerman to be found not guilty, regardless of whether it is 100% undeniable or a complete sham, I'm afraid there will be a bloodbath that will make the Watts riots look like recess at preschool. Doubt it? Look what happens when a sports team WINS a championship, and that's supposed to be a celebration. What could happen with a situation like this? It might also happen if he's convicted and gets less than what the masses think is just and proper.
And it could snowball and set race relations in this country back farther than any of us could have nightmares about.
I hope I'm wrong, but I'm very afraid. Before Seventhson jumps in and says I'm advocating letting Zimmerman walk and let's just forget all about it, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying I don't have any good answers. The whole incident has gotten huge, and it has a life of it's own.