Anyone Ever Thought of This?

[wmhill]

their customers don't know any better. Subs without pole holes sell poorly. The manufacturers don't want to educate, they want to sell stuff. Do you know what a power alley is yet?

yes - I know about power allies, combing and such. Take this entire thread in context- 99% of sound people are doing it wrong? Manufactures are giving bad advice? Most every show/concert I've ever been to has been set up incorrect? People that I know that have been involved in sound all their lives are doing it wrong? So in a bar gig, you'd set the subs in the middle of the floor in front of the singer?
This theory on the subs VS top box placement, would seem to suggest that nothing over 100-150 comes out of a bass cab. I'll keep on doing as I have for the past 30 years, and take my chances of someone straying out of the power alley. And if i'm in a situation were the band is dispersed overly wide (on stage), I'll still put a second bass cab on the other side. I'll also be sure to tell the sound guys at the next concert I'm at that they should check you guys out Talkbass, so they can correct the errors of their ways.

 

[slade]

no area for greys around here as per usual...
most bar gigs don't even have subs- if you're lucky a pair of 15s, one on each side of the stage. IF they pump the bass through them it's left and right, plus your rig on stage. No big thing. Yes, the bass is louder in some areas of the room (or quieter)- but hint hint- so is the guitar, vox, keys, horns, kick drum etc. Move around and things change. IT'S LIVE SOUND!!
One of my guitar players always plays two rigs and spreads them out- does ping pong delays and stuff, plus my drummer in that band uses the second rig as a monitor for more guitar. Works fine.
I've spread my rig out on the stage, worked just fine. Were there any holes out front? Of course there was- but there always is. Big whoop. The dance floor was jumpin' and the stage sounded great. Works for me.

 

[Stewy Lj]

On the festivals we play (2000 plus in the crowd) our foh engineer runs (4) 2x15 subs smack dab in the middle and (2) 1x12 with horns each side on poles by themselves. This set up sounds amazing. The low end is just earth shattering and everything is balanced and crystal clear. When i first saw the setup i thought he was under the influence.

 

[Bass_Pounder]

no area for greys around here as per usual...
most bar gigs don't even have subs- if you're lucky a pair of 15s, one on each side of the stage. IF they pump the bass through them it's left and right, plus your rig on stage. No big thing. Yes, the bass is louder in some areas of the room (or quieter)- but hint hint- so is the guitar, vox, keys, horns, kick drum etc. Move around and things change. IT'S LIVE SOUND!!
One of my guitar players always plays two rigs and spreads them out- does ping pong delays and stuff, plus my drummer in that band uses the second rig as a monitor for more guitar. Works fine.
I've spread my rig out on the stage, worked just fine. Were there any holes out front? Of course there was- but there always is. Big whoop. The dance floor was jumpin' and the stage sounded great. Works for me.

Some of us actually do care what it sounds like out front, and take the necessary steps to minimize the problems.

 

[slade]

who said they don't care? I control what I can. No room is perfect and guess what, you have very little control in the big picture regardless of what you think you're "minimizing". I too vertically align my cabs. But that doesn't equate to good sound out front. Just poking some fun at how it's a little goofy to take everything so seriously when you really can't control much of the audiences sonic experience, especially as a bass player live on stage. I cruise around rooms while playing with my wireless and it's always drastically different in different areas of the hall, bar, room, etc. Just is. Bass is boomy in the back, lacks balls to the left one night, different the next. Lead vox are too bright up front, murky in the back. Those are the variables that make playing live, and even going to live shows, fun to me. Variety and the unexpected. Dialing in my studio is a different thing all together....

 

[Jrussblues]

Does your band use monitors, seems like that would be the best way for everyone to hear you the way they want to on stage. As for out front...so many diff opinions. And techniques on this it's unfathomable.

 

[markmeloney]

Seems to be a variety of opinions here. Just try both during the sound check and see which works better. use your own judgement and forget all this bs

 

[ofajen]

Also bear in mind that this is more clearly an issue outdoors, where you get simple interference in the bass. Indoors, room modes and reflection may dominate and having left and right subs may be acceptable.

Otto

 

[rufus.K]

My job for the last 5 years has been sound installation for Disney and Warner Bros. We have budgets and engineers without peer. I've put in 8 Atmos theatre installations (over 120 sound point sources in most of those) on top of that.
All that said, I am not a engineer, no matter how closely I work with them.

My experience is this:
Comb filtering exists, it's just a fact of the physical world (or power alleys, dead spots, whatever you wish) .
When a high end system is installed, days upon days are spent with microphones and computer all over the listening field. Each source point is sampled from each sample point, and all that data is used to feed a digital speaker management system to correct and compensate for these effects. Every speaker is filtered and time corrected individually (in some cases continually) to mitigate these effects.
Atmos hardware "performs" each playback each time, rather than have static settings. These systems have a minimum of 4 sub locations, because the make the illusion of moving (3D) sound.

My speculation is, that high end permanent installations have some sort of similar treatment. If you Google XTA Speaker Management, you will see a very inexpensive and easy to implement tool to these ends. They alone may not ameliorate a power alley, but can redeuce it's apparent effects in some cases.

On the Disney lot, they have a "Main Theater" the proscenium floor is lined with subs the entire width of the theater (special design JBL). I spent days there being told the slide this one foreword , slide that one to the left, angle this one just a few degrees that way. Boring work as a monkey, but that's what can go into tuning. Go there and try to find a spot where the bass isn't more than reasonably balanced.

I'm just saying it possible, not that many go to the extent.

 

[wcriley]

I'm just a hack soundman, but when I did bars I clustered subs to one side...preferably the side closest to the bass rig.
The human ear/brain has a hard time telling what direction sub frequencies are coming from...especially in a room the size of most bars.

 

[Wasnex]

My job for the last 5 years has been sound installation for Disney and Warner Bros. We have budgets and engineers without peer. I've put in 8 Atmos theatre installations (over 120 sound point sources in most of those) on top of that.
All that said, I am not a engineer, no matter how closely I work with them.

My experience is this:
Comb filtering exists, it's just a fact of the physical world (or power alleys, dead spots, whatever you wish) .
When a high end system is installed, days upon days are spent with microphones and computer all over the listening field. Each source point is sampled from each sample point, and all that data is used to feed a digital speaker management system to correct and compensate for these effects. Every speaker is filtered and time corrected individually (in some cases continually) to mitigate these effects.
Atmos hardware "performs" each playback each time, rather than have static settings. These systems have a minimum of 4 sub locations, because the make the illusion of moving (3D) sound.

My speculation is, that high end permanent installations have some sort of similar treatment. If you Google XTA Speaker Management, you will see a very inexpensive and easy to implement tool to these ends. They alone may not ameliorate a power alley, but can redeuce it's apparent effects in some cases.

On the Disney lot, they have a "Main Theater" the proscenium floor is lined with subs the entire width of the theater (special design JBL). I spent days there being told the slide this one foreword , slide that one to the left, angle this one just a few degrees that way. Boring work as a monkey, but that's what can go into tuning. Go there and try to find a spot where the bass isn't more than reasonably balanced.

I'm just saying it possible, not that many go to the extent.

So have you learned anything about speaker placement and system tuning that you would apply in an attempt to improve the sound on your gigs? Do you think it is best to setup the band and PA in the same configuration in every venue, or would you attempt to make adjustments in order to mitigate different types of problems presented by the venue. To relate this back to the OP: Under what circumstances would you recommend, 1) he stacks his speakers vertically, 2) he sets his speakers up on either side of the drumset? What would be the benefits and shortcomings of 1) and 2) that led to your recommendation?

I am not an acoustic engineer but I do study how sound sources interact and how sound systems are configured and tuned. The last systems I ran on a regular basis had stereo mains on poles with 2 mid-hi packs on each side, 2 to 4 mono front fills on the lip of the stage, and 2 double 15 subwoofers run off an aux. Tech time prior to every soundcheck involved setting levels, EQ, and delay for each of these four front of house channels. Often some of the speakers were physically moved or re-aimed during the process in an attempt to provide even coverage to the audience. Would you prefer your audio tech to spend 20-40 minutes with this sort of system tuning at each venue or do you think it is a waste of time?

 

[jacolyte]

Even the manufactures must be oblivious to this

I'd guess that includes the manufactures too?

Manufactures are giving bad advice?

can somebody please spell manufacturer correctly? you're giving bass players a bad name. thanks!

EDIT: lol, i didn't even realize until i posted this that all the errors were from the same dude. raise your game, wmhill!

 

[Kustom_Thunder]

Playing an outside gig this afternoon, so I'm bringing both my Ampeg PF 115 HE cab's. Normally I stack them with the road case for the head, etc. on top. However, it occurred to me that I could split the location of the cabs just by using a longer cable! I'm thinking one cab on either side of the drummer, so the guitar players can hear me better, and perhaps add some more depth of field to my sound.


I used to do this with a crate 220 a 115 and a 210 it sounded really good.
Any thoughts?

 

[Wasnex]

can somebody please spell manufacturer correctly? you're giving bass players a bad name. thanks!

Congratulations! You just did. There will be extra credit for proper capitalization.

 

[jacolyte]

Congratulations! You just did. There will be extra credit for proper capitalization.

wrong answer. a deliberate, conscious choice (my [lack of] capitalization) is qualitatively distinct from ignorance (the perpetuated misspelling of "manufacturer"). thanks for playing!

 

[Wasnex]

wrong answer. a deliberate, conscious choice (my [lack of] capitalization) is qualitatively distinct from ignorance (the perpetuated misspelling of "manufacturer"). thanks for playing!

Quite a clever way to throw stones at glass houses. How was a poor sap to know?

 

[jacolyte]

Quite a clever way to throw stones at glass houses. How was a poor sap to know?

a poor sap wasn't to know. but, then, a poor sap oughtn't be posting in public.

 

[jacolyte]

Anyone Ever Thought of This?

no. you're the first.

 

[jacolyte]

live sound cancellation issues are nonsense because, move your head one centimeter left or right or backward or forward and suddenly the cancellation becomes a reinforcement (the point being that as people's heads move in the space, the sound that they receive changes). the only time this matters is when recording, when the sound-receiving microphone remains still (and when bass signals are typically recorded though DI boxes anyway, negating the question).

 

[rufus.K]

So have you learned anything about speaker placement and system tuning that you would apply in an attempt to improve the sound on your gigs? Do you think it is best to setup the band and PA in the same configuration in every venue, or would you attempt to make adjustments in order to mitigate different types of problems presented by the venue. To relate this back to the OP: Under what circumstances would you recommend, 1) he stacks his speakers vertically, 2) he sets his speakers up on either side of the drumset? What would be the benefits and shortcomings of 1) and 2) that led to your recommendation?

I am not an acoustic engineer but I do study how sound sources interact and how sound systems are configured and tuned. The last systems I ran on a regular basis had stereo mains on poles with 2 mid-hi packs on each side, 2 to 4 mono front fills on the lip of the stage, and 2 double 15 subwoofers run off an aux. Tech time prior to every soundcheck involved setting levels, EQ, and delay for each of these four front of house channels. Often some of the speakers were physically moved or re-aimed during the process in an attempt to provide even coverage to the audience. Would you prefer your audio tech to spend 20-40 minutes with this sort of system tuning at each venue or do you think it is a waste of time?

I would stack or cluster the bass cabs rather than split them in the OP's case.