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Anyone have a "block" with music theory?

For example I have been turning down jazz gigs because I would be a total disaster walking from charts, and plugging that hole in my skill set is one of my goals for 09.

And goals for 10, 11, 12...

I'm continually learning theory 10 years on and I'm considered amongst my bandmates to know more than most about it. But there's always more to know. I guess you never stop learning.

Has anyone else struggled with learning music theory (and especially translating it to bass)? What finally made the light go on for you and can you suggest some way to get through it?

Yeah most definitely, it was all very confusing to begin with but it was important in grades 11 and 12 to be at least passable to get through those music subjects I studied. But it starts to make sense after a while. Studying jazz really helped, though a lot of it went over my head at first, but I stuck with it. You've just gotta keep going over and over it, a bit like practising your bass.

A good place to start would be your major scale, then minor scale, then mixolydian scale, then some pentatonics, then the modes. From there you should also learn about keys and key signatures (being able to read music key signatures shouldn't be hard to get the concept) and also your arpeggios/chords. Then the difficulty is the ongoing process of seeing how it all interrelates with one another.

Once you get the concepts of keys, scales (especially modes) and chords/arpeggios you'll be in a pretty good way to be playing some decent jazz lines reading from charts. It takes a lot of time and practice, but it is really rewarding to be able to verbalise music in an intellectual manner.

Final piece of advice: have a shot at some of those jazz bands. Maybe wait till you're up to scratch on the songs before gigging, but I found the best way was to jump in the deep end. At first I had no idea what I was doing but sometimes it worked and when it didn't there's usually someone knowledgeable (usually the pianist) who can guide you in the right direction and clear things up for you.
 
Music has rules and a natural order

Actually no.
Music has no rules. Music Theory has rules.
Music has no natural order. The science of accoustics has order.
Humans make music as they see fit to express themselves, that's why there's so many different kinds of music. When listeners ask, "how did they do that?" then the analysis of music structure starts and music theory is born.

Try this simple test can you say the alphabet forwards then backwards. If you cannot do that how do you expect to read music notes which are letters backwards and forwards. Since we use only the first seven letters of the alphabet in music, after learning the alphabet backward and forwards it should be simple to go forwards and backwards on those seven letters.

Wow. I mean... if you are still writting the letter name of the note so you know what to play. I think most good music readers will tell you there is no thinking of the letter name of the note. When I read music I'm singing the notes in my head. There's no alphabet going on there.
 
I totally sympathise with the OP because that's where I am after nearly 40 years of playing bass.

I took piano lessons for about 6 years as a kid and learned to sight read and learn music theory, but then the teacher moved away and my piano playing fizzled out, giving me around 4 years to forget everything I'd learned by the time I picked up the bass at 14. There were no bass teachers available to me at that time and somehow I was never able to apply my sketchily remembered reading skills to bass ("What, you mean I can play this same note on 4 different strings and different frets" :confused: ).

I seemed to have a natural aptitude for bass, and could always hear the bass line in a tune - perhaps singing bass in the church choir helped, so it was just easier to play along to records and rip into the Chris Squire lines that had me mesmerised rather than sit down with Mel Bay.

Now, since I can play in many different styles on fretted and fretless alike, I liken myself to somebody who has learned a number of foreign languages by ear, but is illiterate in all of them, with no sense of grammatical rules. I may be fluent enough to speak the language, I may even be quite articulate, but I know my ability to read, write and construct really eloquent phrases is stilted by my lack of knowledge.

Great thread this, some really good tips to break the log jam
 
Actually no.
Music has no rules. Music Theory has rules.
Music has no natural order. The science of accoustics has order.
Humans make music as they see fit to express themselves, that's why there's so many different kinds of music. When listeners ask, "how did they do that?" then the analysis of music structure starts and music theory is born.

Agree 100%

Everytime I begin teaching theory to a student I emphasise the point that the theory was born when someone did something that sounded good, so an academic mind then pulled it apart and made a science of it so others could replicate it, understand it's part and why it is so - the scientific approach to art. And it is to be made of note here that this is music "theory" we're talking here, not music "law" (think "Einstein's Theory of Relativity" in relation to "Newton's Law of Gravity")


Wow. I mean... if you are still writting the letter name of the note so you know what to play. I think most good music readers will tell you there is no thinking of the letter name of the note. When I read music I'm singing the notes in my head. There's no alphabet going on there.

Indeed. The names of the notes are so we have a common way of communicating what we're talking about. Music theory is the intellectualisation and the language of music - but it doesn't define music. Similar to the visual art world and how it has it's many genres and definitions - it's what we attribute to it that gives it value.

I ramble, but in a nutshell, music theory is the left brained approach to a right brained construct.
 
The disipline in learning all the alphabet is that your training your mind and thought process. We all asume that everyone knows the English Alphabet, but not all do for whatever reason applies to them. The exercise is to make what you read second nature when you have advanced so you see and hear the notes not the letters. I am sure when we were all learning to read we all put our finger under the words as we went. This thread is about those who have trouble with theory not those who don't so a different approach is needed.

When you start music it must have have rules and a natural order, or how do you know if your breaking the rules and creating a new sound, or being inovitive in your playing and thinking.

When we become more accomplished in our skills then there is no rules or natural order, but we must get there first, and the time must be right.
 
...music theory is the left brained approach to a right brained construct.

Music has a wonderful emotional and natural quality--both in listening to it and in performing it--that for some of us is as joyful and as satisfying as anything in the world. To characterize it as solely "a right brained construct", however, grossly simplifies and underestimates it.

I had a good friend in college, an American-born caucasian who had never left the Lower 48, who majored in the Chinese language and minored in Japanese. When job offers from the State Department and countless international corporations began rolling in, I asked him when he began to believe he was fluent in either language. He responded: "When I started dreaming in that language." Today he earns a fortune consulting for companies engaged in international business and writes articles from a Western perspective in both Chinese and Japanese publications.

The point is that he spent thousands of hours in right-brained study of various dialects of two completely foreign languages that don't even have an alphabet in common with English. His dreams in an oriental language were very left-brained and rewarding activities--that were made possible by disciplined toiling in right-brain trenches.

I don't discount the value of talent or aptitude or inspiration at all; but I'm not naive enough to think they aren't limited, often severely, by a lack of knowledge and/or discipline. Do you think Van Gogh or Picasso were without formal training in color or form? Have you ever heard about the well-documented connection between mathematics and music?

Don't sell music short. It's a complex process that involves both sides of the brain and does so differently from indiividual-to-individual.

Gary Player once turned away from the flagstick, hit a shot sideways from a bunker that landed well above the hole and watched as the ball rolled several feet back--like many of Gary's sand shots--into the hole. While the crowd applauded wildly, one spectator standing close-by remarked: "Boy, was that ever lucky!" Gary turned to the spectator, smiled and said politely: "Yes it was. And the more I study the courses and practice these shots, the luckier I get."

Bluesy Soul :cool:
 
I think you've misread me.

"Music theory is a left brained approach to a right brained construct"

Meaning the academic side is a left brained, ordered, labelled and catalogued way of understanding what the creative does through imagination, without constraint.

Through what my parents have taught me since I was very young, and I've continued this into adult life, the right brain is almost limitless, therefore if anything I was giving music a massive rap ;)
 
I think you've misread me.

"Music theory is a left brained approach to a right brained construct"

Meaning the academic side is a left brained, ordered, labelled and catalogued way of understanding what the creative does through imagination, without constraint.

Through what my parents have taught me since I was very young, and I've continued this into adult life, the right brain is almost limitless, therefore if anything I was giving music a massive rap ;)

Apparently I did misread you and I stand corrected. :D

If you are saying that music theory is the right brain's way of dealing with the left brain's creative side, but that music is in any event a "twin-lobed" activity; then we definitely agree.

My apologies for jumping to conclusions sooner and reading/reflecting later.

Bluesy Soul :cool:
 
Oh it absolutely involves both sides of the brain, I totally agree with you there.

I guess what I'm trying to say that music theory is the left hand way of explaining right hand brain's creativity (left typically being analytical, right being typically imaginative). I know that's most likely an oversimplification, and surely the left is involved with creativity (for example, choosing which is the 'best' melody to take for a composition amongst several options) as the right is involved in analysis (eg: imagining the notes of a scale and how those notes relate to a given series of chords).

From a teaching perspective I've sometimes had success by explaining this in much simpler terms so a student grasps that all this confusing theory they're trying to learn is making sense of what their ear is telling them, ie. so they continue to trust their ear and develop their aural sense.

I don't mean to go on tangents, but it is 5am here in Aus and I should go to bed...
 
Oh it absolutely involves both sides of the brain, I totally agree with you there.

I guess what I'm trying to say that music theory is the left hand way of explaining right hand brain's creativity (left typically being analytical, right being typically imaginative). I know that's most likely an oversimplification, and surely the left is involved with creativity (for example, choosing which is the 'best' melody to take for a composition amongst several options) as the right is involved in analysis (eg: imagining the notes of a scale and how those notes relate to a given series of chords).

From a teaching perspective I've sometimes had success by explaining this in much simpler terms so a student grasps that all this confusing theory they're trying to learn is making sense of what their ear is telling them, ie. so they continue to trust their ear and develop their aural sense.

I don't mean to go on tangents, but it is 5am here in Aus and I should go to bed...

Great point
I think you've hit the nail on the head, if we can be creative with how we present and understand information thats analytical we will retain and undersand it better. I think the more creative and fun the subject the easiers it is to learn.
 
Theory is a real struggle for me. I've been hard pressed to find a book that describes it without sounding like a computer programming textbook. I've also been subject to teachers who vomit forth a bunch of stuff really fast and then say, "Get it?" Ah, no, I didn't go to Berklee for three years dude, sorry.

What really frustrares me is that I've head teachers say that memorization is not the important thing, but understanding the 'logic' is. That approach didn't work for me. When I memorized the circle of fifths and fourths well enough, I 'got it' because of how the notes SOUNDED, not because of the 'logic' of it. If I wanted to understand logic, I'd go back to college and take a logic course. I want to understand MUSIC, so I need to hear how music SOUNDS.

One thing that really continues to help me is Interval Ear-Training. Learning to recognize a minor third, a tri-tone, etc, when I hear them really contributes to my playing, and keeps me from having to 'hunt around' for the right note. I'm glad that Interval Traning is starting to be promoted more among the general public.

I'm a very right-brained person. I DO NOT understand something until I do it or use it. When I finally do understand a chunk of theory, it turns out it's something I've been doing for years anyway because it sounds right. This probably happens to a lot of musicians.

Another bad learning experience I've had is taking bass lessons from guitar players.
I don't recommend that. Yes, all the notes are the same, but bass and guitar do different jobs, and bass technique is different from guitar technique.

Boy, this thread opened a wound, didn't it?
 
I'm a very right-brained person. I DO NOT understand something until I do it or use it.

This is a really valuable point for anyone teaching theory to clearly understand. Learning theory without an application to the students music is an uphill battle, and probably close to a waste of time. Music theory is a tool to use, it's not a silver bullet either.

When I finally do understand a chunk of theory, it turns out it's something I've been doing for years anyway because it sounds right......

Amen. Same today as if all of music history. Someone was playing it or writing before the theory dudes got their hands on it. Music comes first.
 
If you can jam, improvise, and make up your own bass lines, then you already "know" music theory. You just don't know the labels for the things you already know.

Music theory is just the labels for the concepts.

Music is a language. If you are not an English Major in college, but you can speak English, then you "know" the language. You just don't know the terms for things like dangling participles and future perfect tense. You can still be fluent without knowing those things.

That said, I have a minor in music, and find an understanding of theory very helpful. Examples: if you know a scale, you only have to know one thing (C scale) instead of 7 things (the notes in the scale.)

If you know a blues song is a I-IV-V progression, all arpeggios, then you know every note in the song just with that info. And you can play it in any key.

I learned theory from a Mel Bay guitar chord book. When I got to college, most of the music classes I took just built on what I leaned from Mel Bay.
 
I was in exactly the same situation as you were. Playing for >20 years, played in bands, had decent chops and ok feel but couldn't take it to the next level and hampered by a lack of music theory.

I visited Carol Kaye's website and saw a lot of her training tips were things I had learned the hard way to be true. I found an instructor in my area (see link - I think there is somebody local to you) and started taking lessons.

http://www.carolkaye.com/www/education/instructors.htm#usa

Long story short, I've been amazed at my progress. Although I have never been a jazz guy (and can't read music), my teacher had me improvising over chord charts for jazz standards within a few months. Some of the things I worked on included chordal theory including chordal scales, stacking triads, cycle of fourths and fifths etc.
 
Wow. I mean... if you are still writting the letter name of the note so you know what to play. I think most good music readers will tell you there is no thinking of the letter name of the note. When I read music I'm singing the notes in my head. There's no alphabet going on there.

It's reflexive to me to hear the note and the letter at the same time. It becomes relevant when I want to transpose, but I also use the letters to figure out what other notes/arpeggios might go with what I'm playing - that's how it's filed in my brain (by letter as well as by sound). This may be because I play instruments that are not tuned just to concert C (tenor sax). When I see a chart, I can hear the music in my head, but I'm also listing out those notes. I like knowing what key I'm in, and figuring out what chords are involved without having to see them listed out - I don't know how I'd do that without the letters.

I don't write the notes out to know what to play (I'd use tab if I wanted to do a note-by-note thing), but I do like knowing quickly what's in a specific chord and not just in a chord in general (for example, what's in a Dm7 and not just how a m7 is structured in general).

So yesterday, when the guitar player said his new composition had these five chords in the verse, my brain generated a list of letters (not sounds). I think people do it differently, is my point.

On a different topic, I'm betting the OP knows a bit more theory than he realizes. Music theory is confusing because there are so many different aspects to it. One way of referring to a particular set of notes or ideas is used in one context, for a particular purpose, and then another way is used for some other reason. To get the biggest benefit out of Talkbass or any theory book, it's important to keep learning the proper terminology for things. Don't stop or get hung up if it seems inconsistent or confusing at first.

We're rereading our college textbook on music theory - it's very different for me this time, because of the bass playing (last time through, I was thinking mainly keyboard). The author lists three kinds of minor scales but, because it's early in the book, says nothing of their relationship to modes or why we need to have three kinds of minor scales.

The answer lies in "this is how Western music works." It may be true that "music has no rules," but Western music certainly has rules (all of which can be broken, but I think it needs to be poetic, not just breaking rules for the sheer heck of it). Every local folk music culture has rules as well, even atonal or avant garde music generates its own rules. I love Western music (and a lot of Eastern music can be understood or talked about using Western theory, and is talked about that way in much of ethnomusicology).

For me, understanding the underlying mathematic principles (including the relationship of Western and other scales to the physical waveforms of sound) has been really inspiring, this time through the theory. Simple stuff, like someone saying, play "I and V" takes on new meaning when you begin to really look hard at V and why it's called "perfect" and what role it plays in so many different aspects of harmony. The fact that the V is 7 half-steps up from the root (and standard tuning on the bass places emphasizes the IVth - or 5 half-steps) still gives me much to think about. The major dyad is 4 half-steps and the minor dyad is 3 half-steps (if I'm remembering correctly). It's hard to find music anywhere in the world that doesn't play off those last two intervals. So there's a lot of music in just those 7 half-steps between the root and the perfect 5th.

Right before I read this thread, I was pondering how v is halfway in the octave - and how halfway isn't "perfect" the way V is.

A lot of you play much more intuitively than I do, I'm sure - but I really like knowing why one sound leaves the music feeling unresolved, another makes it resolve, etc. I don't compose, but I play with two guitar players who do, and it's helpful for me to understand why they did what they did. When we sometimes reconstruct a song to add a bridge or something, my knowledge about what key the thing is in and what chords/pitches might work in a bridge can be helpful. To broaden some songs, we transpose as well, something that I find the letters really helpful in doing.

Upshot is that I use letters and numbers, a lot. Eventually, every line I play will be stored in my head in terms of various numbers (intervals and relative harmony) and notes (letters). It's slow going, I wish I were faster at picking things up and remembering them some other way, but I truly enjoy it.

Ran into a guitar player (somewhat well-known) at a store in the Valley who had the geometric symbols for certain intervals (from Pythagorus, actually) beautifully tatooed on his forearm and we got to talking about the number "9" in music (I am usually only working with numbers up to 7!) and in fifteen minutes, he taught me so much about 3's and 9's (and sixes).

I like musicians who explore the esoteric aspects of the Western tradition - Pythagorus made every student learn music and intervals. Interestingly, the "3" issue involves one of those minor scales that the music theory book thinks is so important. The tats of course just looked tribal - and I see them in tribal art from Navajo to Aborigine.

/end rambling
 
wow, lots of info here, but i'll you my account for it.

Now, i tried to learn theory and all that stuff with my original bass teacher, but it was very sketchy, i got pretty good at timing, but never actually the real stuff like chords and what not. Now being in a guitar class *GASP* yes a guitar class at my school it has come much more natually to me. While we are learning only what really pretains to the guitar, i don't really care. My main goal was to be able to read, then progress, and LET ME TELL YOU those first few weeks were confusing, i got so lost its not even funny, but after figuring out how it really works, the reading aspect all sort of fell into place. Now thats all i've learned, but when we go into themore uhh confustion stuff, i think i will be able to grasp it.

~craig