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Anyone Just Used Condenser Mics for Live Sound?

My six-member old-time acoustic band is back to rehearsing and we have three gigs lined up through June. The nature of our upcoming gigs requires us to use a PA, but I don't want to mic every individual voice and instrument.

I'm thinking about setting up 3 or 4 condenser mics strategically in front of the band and using these to amplify our live sound. Has anyone done this either successfully or unsuccessfully? I like the idea of setting up just a few mics rather than a dozen.

We recently recorded a rehearsal with these same condenser mics set up around the room and it picked up everything very well, although the banjo, harmonica and hand percussion could have been a bit lower in the mix. This issue might be solved by just listening to the recordings and self-adjusting.

Here is the makeup of the band:
Singer, Lead & Banjo
Singer, Lead & Guitar
Singer, Lead & Mandolin
Singer, Backup & Hand Percussion
Singer, Backup & Upright Bass
Harmonica
 
multiples can be real trouble with phasing and reflections. LDC's can be an issue with gain before feedback always! Most of the acoustic rock bands I do use individual DI's and mics. Bass player has an amp on stage. Drums are mic'ed...

If you want to go that route, I would try...
1 good LDC on a stand, height appropriate to voices.
1 good SDC on the same stand positioned lower for dreadnaught, banjo. It should grab mando as well.

Off to one side, another SDC on a straight stand for soloists. Up for harp, fiddle, mid for mando, down for dreadnaught.

That is the config used with Chattam County Line. They brought an Ear Trumpet LDC and a pair of Neumann SDC's... Bass was an Ear Trumpet nestled into the bass strings behind the bridge. They worked the heck out of that setup. Once it was up and tuned to the space, they essentially mixed themselves by knowing where to be in the circle ...

Then ... practice so the band gets an idea of how to work this...

I've also seen it done with one LDC and very skilled at Bluegrass folks who get the concept. Very old timey thing. Still works for the right folks.

I have done choral and Taiko with a pair of LDC's to the sides, equi-distant from the center of the circle. Strongest singers in the center.

For Taiko it's a crap shoot due to all the movement. Next time I want to hang the mic's overhead.
 
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I play upright in a few acoustic acts and some of my bandmates like to do this one or two microphone LDC setup. I have a little bit of advice below based on my success and failures in this department:

First of all, getting a good sound and mix with this setup is somewhat demanding for the performers. You and your bandmates need to learn how to work the microphones. Depending on how many microphones you are using, there may be very little the sound tech can do about the mix of different instruments. I've never gotten a great handle on how to tell if you are on the money in this department, but I assume in-ear monitors would be very helpful.

Additionally, the success of an acoustic condenser microphone setup is quite venue-specific. If you don't need to be too loud, don't need monitors, the room isn't too boomy/reflective, then it can sound great. If these things don't line up, then you can end up with sub-par sound or a totally unusable feedback situation. Having a bunch of hot condenser microphones on stage can also be more of a pain for the sound tech, so be prepared for some pushback.

Finally, I like the acoustic condenser setup, but my advice is to always come prepared to go full DI/close mic style. I would also recommend going direct for the bass. I know a lot of acoustic pickups sound pretty bad, but I think the trade-off is worth it if it means you can hear your bandmates and push a cleaner sound out to the audience.

Follow-up question: What kind of acoustic music do you play? Your instrumentation makes me think it is less old time and more general acoustic folk/rock?
 
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4Mal and Abington,

First, thanks so much for taking the time to provide the excellent insight and feedback.

Abington, our band was started several years ago playing songs from the American Civil War, but we're recently pivoted to playing American folk music from the 19th century with just a smattering of the previous songbook, which was songs the Union and South sang while on the march and at camp.

We are not like a bluegrass band where we all stand in a circle and move inward and away from a microphone - we are seated when we play.

Here is the recording a mentioned in my original post. We were in a circle in my home's music room, recorded using 2 MXL 603S mics and 1 AKG C300B, into a Peavey PV10 mixer, and then to a Zoom H4n digital recorder. The mics were almost placed randomly with the MXLs behind the circle and the AKG in the center.

PS ... due to the pandemic, then a serious motorcycle accident I had in August 2020, this was my first rehearsal with the group in nearly a year, and I was sight reading charts for all but two of the songs. A major factor in wanting to go to just a few mics is that I am still recovering from the accident and I am certain I will still be in charge of the PA loading, unloading, setup, sound check, tear down, etc. The other members always help where they can, but much of it is still left to me, so less is better.

Dropbox - 044_April_18_2021 - Simplify your life
 
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Lead vocals often needs their own dedicated (super)cardioid mic.

Bass thru DI will be much much easier.

One good condersor mic for the rest.

- Banjo to turn 90° to the mic to be quieter.

- Harmonica to work on volume using breath control & cupping of the hands. Also to play less while singers are singing.

- guitarist during solos needs a volume boost. Using a DI that is only engaged in solos would work. Watch out for phasing issues.
 
My six-member old-time acoustic band is back to rehearsing and we have three gigs lined up through June. The nature of our upcoming gigs requires us to use a PA, but I don't want to mic every individual voice and instrument.

I'm thinking about setting up 3 or 4 condenser mics strategically in front of the band and using these to amplify our live sound. Has anyone done this either successfully or unsuccessfully? I like the idea of setting up just a few mics rather than a dozen.

We recently recorded a rehearsal with these same condenser mics set up around the room and it picked up everything very well, although the banjo, harmonica and hand percussion could have been a bit lower in the mix. This issue might be solved by just listening to the recordings and self-adjusting.

Here is the makeup of the band:
Singer, Lead & Banjo
Singer, Lead & Guitar
Singer, Lead & Mandolin
Singer, Backup & Hand Percussion
Singer, Backup & Upright Bass
Harmonica

It's common in blue grass circles for everyone to gather around a single mic. The band manages the mix by doing a little dance and using player dynamics. When someone solos, they take a step or two forward and play a little louder. When they are done soloing they step back to their section position.

Whether this sort of technique will work for you, depends on the acoustics, the PA, how the PA is set up, and how loud the music will be. Because it is necessary for the players to do the dance to manage the mix, the visual presentation is compromised to some extent for the sake of the auditory presentation. Be mindful of this.

Here's a post I wrote awhile back that you may find useful: Single Mic Technique? Consider reading the entire thread.

One particular problem is the different timbre and volume capabilities of each instrument. Banjo is rather loud and obnoxious, but it also tends to feed back very easily. Keep in mind that mics are directional and use this to your advantage. For example perform mic technique experiments to determine how to achieve the right balance between the banjo and banjo player's voice. Then figure out which instrument(s) are best to pair with the banjo player. You mentioned that harmonica and hand percussion were too loud. If they share a mic with the banjo player, they will probably need to stand farther from the mic, because their instruments are held up high (near mouth level). You don't won't the harmonica and hand percussion to cover up the lead vocals, right?

It would probably help to have all three form a semi-circle around the mic with the banjo player in the center (on axis), with the mic relatively high to pick up more voice than banjo. Since the harmonic and hand percussion are of to the sides, the sound will be a bit darker and lower in volume, so they may not need to stand as far away from the mic for proper balance. The more to the sides the stand the darker and lower their volume should be.

I suggest doing some experiments and then drawing a stage plot after you get something that works. If time allows, consider spiking the stage with gaff tape before the gig, so everyone knows where to stand for their solo and section position. During the show you can go out front and take a listen; then advise people if they need to move closer or farther from their mics.

Always advisable to do an extended sound check before the gig if possible. That way you can make adjustments to the mics, where people are standing, and also to the PA system. It really helps if you know the performer's tendencies. Unfortunately most people sandbag a bit during soundcheck, and then play noticeably louder during the actual gig. When you know the band well you can compensate for this, because most people sandbag a consistent amount from one gig to the next. It may help if you ask the performers to play at the level they will play during the show, but some people sandbag intentionally so that they will be heard better during the show.

Hope these ideas help.

Good Luck!
 
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@OldFenderPlayer I listened to a few of the recordings. The vocals are definitely weak and dark which can be addressed with mic technique. The banjo and harmonica sound natural and dominant, while the singers sound muffled. IMHO the vocals and ability to clearly hear the words should be the top priority when dealing with songs.

If the PA is stereo, you might also try some light stereo panning. The idea is not to create a stereo effect, it's to create a bit more space in the mix. Try panning the mics in about 3dB intervals to a max of no more than 6dB L/R. Try something like L6,L3,C,R3,R6

The other thing I would suggest is better use of EQ for frequency slotting. With this sort of mic technique in a live setting, skillful use of EQ is really going to be critical for preventing feedback and getting the clearest most natural sound. First thing to do is apply HPFs to all channels and run them up as high as possible without thinning out the sound too much. A little thinning is actually good, because when you put all of the instruments together it's too thick. You will also need to scoop out a lot of mud in the low mids. Finally, the ability to notch out feedback is also extremely useful.

If the bass has a pickup, consider using it instead of a mic. This is assuming it's necessary to run the bass through the system. If you are running the bass through an amp, the sound from the amp will often be more than enough. The idea is the pickup will provide a drier sound so you have a bit more control over the lows and low mids. All of the open mics will already have a serious tendency towards making the sounder wetter/more reverberant.
 
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When I saw the thread title, I came here thinking this was about condensers versus dynamics, but it isn’t.

I have done stages with all condensers, and there are advantages to that, but...everything was close miked.

The best sound for live performance is almost always going to be close miking. Whenever you back the mics away from the source, you’ll have less gain before feedback, and more troubles getting a good balance of things.
 
I have done it for big choirs. Generally speaking, it's not something I'd recommend. I prefer to close mic with dynamic mics that can handle high SPLs. Otherwise monitoring gets tricky as you run into feedback much easier. Also, it really depends on the hall. If the stage is dead, its a good thing. In ear monitors help.
 
I have done it for big choirs. Generally speaking, it's not something I'd recommend. I prefer to close mic with dynamic mics that can handle high SPLs. Otherwise monitoring gets tricky as you run into feedback much easier. Also, it really depends on the hall. If the stage is dead, its a good thing. In ear monitors help.

I wouldn't expect any monitor to be used with this sort of technique. The band will need to rely on balancing acoustically.
 
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I would not recommend doing that. A large number of mics means the extra noise (PA bleed especially) gets amplified in direct proportion to the number of open mics. Without any way to close-mic the source you will have a very low gain-before-feedback ratio. Basically you’re asking for feedback, probably a lot of it.
 
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Best gain before feedback, but not necessarily the most natural/authentic sound.

Whenever you don’t have a decent amount of gain margin, the sound will suffer - it’ll sound hollow or start to ring, which is definitely unnatural.

Yes, close miking affects the sound, but an experienced sound person will know how to choose the right mics, mic positions, compensate with eq, etc to counter those effects.
 
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Whenever you don’t have a decent amount of gain margin, the sound will suffer - it’ll sound hollow or start to ring, which is definitely unnatural.

Yes, close miking affects the sound, but an experienced sound person will know how to choose the right mics, mic positions, compensate with eq, etc to counter those effects.

As I wrote previously:
Whether this sort of technique will work for you, depends on the acoustics, the PA, how the PA is set up, and how loud the music will be.

If it's not possible to get sufficient gain before feedback (GBF) with area mic'ing, then you must resort to close mic'ing techniques.

Can be agree to agree?
 
What kind of venue are we talking about here? Will there be a sound tech?

I think that the seated situation actually makes things a bit trickier. I'd consider grouping the chairs in three sets of two and each pod trying to work the mic as close as possible to get as hot a signal into the mic as you can. There are some good tips in this thread about trying to get the most volume out of your PA without feedback.
 
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I think you’re going to find that the issue is not so much the mics, or the mic placement, but the band being used to working with such a setup. Plenty of people use a three mic setup and sound great; the problem is them learning how to work with that setup. I would do some serious rehearsals first to see if this is going to fly.
 
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As I wrote previously:
If it's not possible to get sufficient gain before feedback (GBF) with area mic'ing, then you must resort to close mic'ing techniques.
Can be agree to agree?

The band in this case is a bluegrass band, and yes, sometimes those bands do use a single mic approach, though it' s widely acknowledged that that technique is tough to pull off. The single mic approach and close miking both avoid one of the issues with what's being proposed - instruments being picked up by two or more mics, with time delay/phase issues.

If I was hired to do FOH for a gig like this, I'd be OK (if there was lots of time) trying the one mic approach, BUT... I would absolutely set up close mics in advance, and only strike them is the singe mic thing actually worked - all of this would be discussed with the band in advance. I would never agree to do sound for a bluegrass band with multiple far mics as the approach. Between the gain before feedback and phase issues, there's just no realistic chance that that will sound good, and I won't risk my reputation by taking a gig that I know has a very high chance of not sounding good.

Far miking a choir can work (I've done it). The reason the phase thing doesn't absolutely kill that is that there are lots of voices, each with a different distance to the mics, and the phasey sound gets somewhat washed out when the vocals are all mixed - it's not ideal, but with a choir of 40 people, you'll never get one mic per person.
 
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