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Anyone scoop mids for rock??
- Thread starter Spinal Tapper
- Start date
Cool. For the record, I don't actively scoop anything usually. The Sansamp I use into a poweramp does have a mid-scooped sound though, but I never have any problems hearing myself or being heard.
I know alot of hardcore band guys who run a VERY scooped EQ (chugga chugga) and I always hear them just fine also. I don't have a problem with bass sounding like bass.
I do not like the honky nasal sound alot of guys go for these days though, can't stand it. Different strokes for different folks. It does seem to be repeated often here on TB that you "gotta crank those mids to cut-through the mix" and I don't agree with that.
Lots of different answers here...it could be that it is the interaction of the bass, the type of strings and the amp. And lets not forget the room configuration.
I don't think there is one answer...
However, one think I like about the Markbass stuff is that it has two really simple controls. The VLE control gives a more vintage bass amp sound (cuts the highs, leaves lows and mids) while the VPF control gives a more modern sound (scooped). I like both for different reasons/song styles.
Also the Markbass has 2 controls for the mids...High mid and low mid. These get adjusted based on the room acoustics.
Works well for me.
I don't think there is one answer...
However, one think I like about the Markbass stuff is that it has two really simple controls. The VLE control gives a more vintage bass amp sound (cuts the highs, leaves lows and mids) while the VPF control gives a more modern sound (scooped). I like both for different reasons/song styles.
Also the Markbass has 2 controls for the mids...High mid and low mid. These get adjusted based on the room acoustics.
Works well for me.
The mids I'm talking about don't sound like 'honky' to me. They sound like the solid, foundational frequency range that really defines the fundamental of the bass.
Thanks for the responses fellas...so, I did a little test last night, and we ran through our set of regular songs - we've been writing a lot of new stuff lately, so it's been hard to tell what is working and what isnt', and I have to say...I take it allll back 
I ended up raising my mid-highs to about noon, and the mid-lows to about 9/10'oclock...I guess I just had to hear the bass in the band setting playing OUR regular songs...now my amp sound perfect to me. I did bring them back significantly from where I was about a month ago though, so too much mids can be bad, me thinks
I'll hand it to the mids though - they do help push through
I ended up raising my mid-highs to about noon, and the mid-lows to about 9/10'oclock...I guess I just had to hear the bass in the band setting playing OUR regular songs...now my amp sound perfect to me. I did bring them back significantly from where I was about a month ago though, so too much mids can be bad, me thinks
I'll hand it to the mids though - they do help push through
I routinely use the Mid Scoop button on my Shuttle 6.0, and I run the mid control on my Lakland 55-94 cut nearly all the way. It sounds best to me this way and I've never had a complaint from my sound guy. I Also did some recording with the 55-94, with TI flats, staright to the board and rolled off the mid on the bass as well. However, I just picked up a Lakland JO and find that it sounds a bit better with the Mid Scoop disengaged. I agree that it depends on your band. Back when I started playing with Fender amps that had no mids control, I ran my P bass control all the way up, put treble at 10 and bass at around 5 (with flatwounds).
It depends greatly on the instrument (leaving out the pedals, the amps natural EQ curve, cabinet, mic etc). I use Stingray 5 with BassDriver. I tried both the ESP B-range 5-string and Warwick neck-through Thumb 5 with the same settings and it sucked the life out of both of them.
Then the style of music comes to play.
Basically, if you consider how much every little change in one part of the signal change makes a difference, there are endless possibilities to get either a good or a bad sound.
Long story short - I support the "EQ with your ears" crowd.
Then the style of music comes to play.
Basically, if you consider how much every little change in one part of the signal change makes a difference, there are endless possibilities to get either a good or a bad sound.
Long story short - I support the "EQ with your ears" crowd.
I scoop mids if I really don't feel like anyone hearing my playing
Good, you should turn down too.
- Jun 29, 2006
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- President, CEO, CFO, CIO, Chief Engineer, Technician, Janitor - Reiner Amplification
The R500 has extremely heavy mids (had one for a while, very cool amp!) so I can see how you would be able to cut mids and still cut through the band. Rock on.
two things to add:
flatwounds seem to sit in the mix better than any other strings. they don't really cut through, but the thump occupies a distinct aural space (to my ears). if you've got flats, you probably won't have much trouble hearing and feeling the low mids with a flat eq.
boosting and cutting frequencies should be done in moderation. start with a flat eq and make small adjustments to carve out your sound. by this logic, a slight mid scoop could give you the tone you're looking for (bass that's "felt" more than heard, and doesn't clash with the mix). but i would never recommend cutting the mids drastically.
flatwounds seem to sit in the mix better than any other strings. they don't really cut through, but the thump occupies a distinct aural space (to my ears). if you've got flats, you probably won't have much trouble hearing and feeling the low mids with a flat eq.
boosting and cutting frequencies should be done in moderation. start with a flat eq and make small adjustments to carve out your sound. by this logic, a slight mid scoop could give you the tone you're looking for (bass that's "felt" more than heard, and doesn't clash with the mix). but i would never recommend cutting the mids drastically.
I dunno, one of the reasons I only tried flats once was because they didn't really cut through like I was used to rounds doing.
typically mids will give you a fuller tone than killing the mids, I played with a Drummer who used to insist "take out the mids" *insert smily EQ here* and that was, ok for the time with the band i was playing with, then i realised If i added mids i got through the mix alot better with guitarists using scooped mids and my volume didn't go that loud but it cut through just fine, personally i only scoop the mids if I'm sat in my bedroom and want something hollow and ear friendly
Dare to be different. Examples of scoopers in Rock would be Entwistle and T. Petersson of Cheap Trick. They make up for it by sheer volume and and both carve out their own sonic territory in their respective situations.
Careful with the blanket statements folks. I never had trouble hearing either of these guys.
Careful with the blanket statements folks. I never had trouble hearing either of these guys.
BillFM hit the nail on the old head. Parts is Parts and amps is amps.........not.
All amps are voiced a bit differently, that's what gives them their sound. (yes i know speakers give them a LOT of their sound and tube power amps do too, but we are talking preamps and EQ sections here.
The legendary fender tone stack used by alembic, some BBE units i think, the trace elliot v series, etc is a very old tom walker design made available by RCA for nada in the hopes that folks would use it and make products that needed their tubes (it worked). The mids are cut only. Flat is nominally 2-10-2 bass-mid-treble.
SWR amps seem to have a cut somewhere around 200 hz and a boost somewhere in the highs, eden amps definitely seem to have some sort of low mid bump, etc, etc, etc.
Even the EQ sections themselves often have a sound (try hitting the bypass on a demeter HBP-1 with the active tone controls set flat to see what i mean.)
boosting and cutting mids gets bandied about a fair deal here (guilty as charged right here). However, not to blow my own horn but check out the EQ thread in the FAQ sticky. I didn't make all of those those descriptions up. understanding what each part of the frequency spectrum sounds like can help a lot. If a manufacturer is cool, they will tell you (or even give you some charts) showing exactly what each tone control is doing, what the center frequency is, what the Q is, where the shelf starts, how fast it drops off, what the dB range is, etc. Not all mid controls are created equal.
I still agree 100% about EQing with your ears, but it does help to know just what your controls are doing and how your amp is inherently voiced.
All amps are voiced a bit differently, that's what gives them their sound. (yes i know speakers give them a LOT of their sound and tube power amps do too, but we are talking preamps and EQ sections here.
The legendary fender tone stack used by alembic, some BBE units i think, the trace elliot v series, etc is a very old tom walker design made available by RCA for nada in the hopes that folks would use it and make products that needed their tubes (it worked). The mids are cut only. Flat is nominally 2-10-2 bass-mid-treble.
SWR amps seem to have a cut somewhere around 200 hz and a boost somewhere in the highs, eden amps definitely seem to have some sort of low mid bump, etc, etc, etc.
Even the EQ sections themselves often have a sound (try hitting the bypass on a demeter HBP-1 with the active tone controls set flat to see what i mean.)
boosting and cutting mids gets bandied about a fair deal here (guilty as charged right here). However, not to blow my own horn but check out the EQ thread in the FAQ sticky. I didn't make all of those those descriptions up. understanding what each part of the frequency spectrum sounds like can help a lot. If a manufacturer is cool, they will tell you (or even give you some charts) showing exactly what each tone control is doing, what the center frequency is, what the Q is, where the shelf starts, how fast it drops off, what the dB range is, etc. Not all mid controls are created equal.
I still agree 100% about EQing with your ears, but it does help to know just what your controls are doing and how your amp is inherently voiced.
What I don't understand is, why are you discovering this just now? For the first time?
I don't know about you, but one of the very first things I do when I acquire a new amp is to experiment with the settings - extensively - in order to get a sense of the entire range of sounds it will reproduce. By the time I've settled on a setting - or settings - it's generally because I've already heard virtually everything else that the amp will produce, so my preferences are informed by what is possible.
Am I missing something here?
MM
Scoopin the mids was enormously popular in the 80's on both guitar and bass - DOKKEN is a great example. You get a tight sound, but it is THIN and dated sounding.
The mids are the body of your tone; you want your body to be in shape, not super fat, not ultra-thin.
My suggestion is to get the mids where you think they sound great, and then add just a hair more. This gives the bass a boldness in the mix, without wreaking booming havoc and without becoming "muddy".
Check out the HEDDA stuff if you get the chance. We play metal, non-scooped, and I think it sounds punchy without being "boomy".
Link Removed Try "Gypsy's Kiss" first. Without the mids, I think my bass would go in-and-out on the runs and where I match the guitarist throughout the 3rd verse.
Mac
The mids are the body of your tone; you want your body to be in shape, not super fat, not ultra-thin.
My suggestion is to get the mids where you think they sound great, and then add just a hair more. This gives the bass a boldness in the mix, without wreaking booming havoc and without becoming "muddy".
Check out the HEDDA stuff if you get the chance. We play metal, non-scooped, and I think it sounds punchy without being "boomy".
Link Removed Try "Gypsy's Kiss" first. Without the mids, I think my bass would go in-and-out on the runs and where I match the guitarist throughout the 3rd verse.
Mac
many bass cabinets in the old days had a honky, midrangey tone. lacking in both lows & highs, these cabs were in need of a 'scooped' eq. modern cabs are different. using
a contour switch or scooped eq would be overkill with most modern cabs--assuming
the cab is large enough for the job at hand
just my opinion
a contour switch or scooped eq would be overkill with most modern cabs--assuming
the cab is large enough for the job at hand
just my opinion
Mid scooping sounds good for me in some cases, but will disappear in the mix. It can be cool to mess around and get that metal/punk sound with some distortion, but again not in the mix. With my VT pedal cutting the 500hz is mud. All in all, I do not scoop mids.
- Dec 18, 2000
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Nobody ever boosts some mids and cuts others? I'm shocked ; }
Sometimes I cut 1.6K Hz and boost 800 Hz. Actually I change it up a lot because there's a grunt-truck load of different bass tones that'll be heard in various mixes and they are all a bit different. I usually have no problems floating the band like a cork on a riptide or slicing right through, so I can pretty much choose my tones from a wider palette than the topic seems to be acknowledging.
Here's a chart of frequencies defined by octaves:
http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Bass,_midrange,_and_treble_frequencies_in_octaves
Sometimes I cut 1.6K Hz and boost 800 Hz. Actually I change it up a lot because there's a grunt-truck load of different bass tones that'll be heard in various mixes and they are all a bit different. I usually have no problems floating the band like a cork on a riptide or slicing right through, so I can pretty much choose my tones from a wider palette than the topic seems to be acknowledging.
Here's a chart of frequencies defined by octaves:
http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Bass,_midrange,_and_treble_frequencies_in_octaves
