Anyone scoop mids for rock??

[rpsands]

Nobody ever boosts some mids and cuts others? I'm shocked ; }

Been repeating that one all damn week "SCOOP MIDS = MUD" crowd needs to start defining their terms, since mids are a big range. I cut at 800 or 1200 a lot of times, but I still have no problem being heard, because I've got content above and below that, and I am not literally cutting all the mid mids out.

 

[Korladis]

Dare to be different. Examples of scoopers in Rock would be Entwistle and T. Petersson of Cheap Trick. They make up for it by sheer volume and and both carve out their own sonic territory in their respective situations.

Careful with the blanket statements folks. I never had trouble hearing either of these guys.

Actually, I get a Entwistle-ish tone by cutting lows, not mids.

 

[greenboy]

Been repeating that one all damn week "SCOOP MIDS = MUD" crowd needs to start defining their terms

Evidently nobody else but you and I have preamps or heads with more than fixed-frequency BASS, MID, and TREBLE knobs ; }

 

[will33]

Nobody ever boosts some mids and cuts others? I'm shocked ; }

Sometimes I cut 1.6K Hz and boost 800 Hz. Actually I change it up a lot because there's a grunt-truck load of different bass tones that'll be heard in various mixes and they are all a bit different. I usually have no problems floating the band like a cork on a riptide or slicing right through, so I can pretty much choose my tones from a wider palette than the topic seems to be acknowledging.

Here's a chart of frequencies defined by octaves:

http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Bass,_midrange,_and_treble_frequencies_in_octaves

That works sometimes...today, the flipside of that worked well. Context is old (real) R&B. P-bass through SM400S through homebrew 210 and 112 cabs. A slight boost at 250 and a slight boost at 1600 made it right. It all depends on the context, the equipment and the room (and the other players). If I plugged in a different bass and played in a different room, the exact opposite may have got me what I needed.

Point is, the mid range (emphasize "range") is the widest and affects your perception of tone more than anything else and is also the most neglected by most people. Obvious examples are everywhere. The 410 bass cab is woofer +tweeter, no mid. The most common PA cab is 15 + HF horn, no mid and on and on. You can take out bad sounding mids and put in good sounding ones but they're all mids.

 

[rpsands]

Eh, something to keep in mind with those PA cabs is that often times the horn is crossed over quite low. With 12 and 10 + horn cabs, with a giant horn crossed over pretty low, you can get pretty solid off-axis from a two-way. Even with the 15s if the horn is down around 1500hz it's nothing like a bass cab with a 3500/5khz horn.

Most of those "pa mains" style cabs need to be crossed over to a sub however, so really they are part of a 3-way system

 

[greenboy]

It all depends on the context, the equipment and the room (and the other players).

Yep. Although when you have enough power and a cab that can handle it even concerning low end excursion, the latitude for creative tone shaping is greater.

Point is, the mid range (emphasize "range") is the widest and affects your perception of tone more than anything else

But that doesn't negate the usefulness of shaping in the bass and treble regions too. From that chart in the fEarful WIKI:

Bass
Sub bass: 31 Hz to 62 Hz (and below)
Mid bass: 62 Hz to 125 Hz
Upper bass: 125 Hz to 250 Hz

Midrange
Lower midrange: 250 Hz to 500 Hz
Mid midrange: 500 Hz to 1K Hz
Upper midrange: 1K Hz to 2K Hz

Treble
Lower treble: 2K Hz to 4K Hz
Mid treble: 4K Hz to 8K Hz
Upper treble: 8K Hz to 16K Hz (and above)

Ferinstance, if I want some bite, I might boost a little at 2K Hz, or for some sizzle, somewhere in the mid-treble region - and for some sheen or air, maybe add a little at 8 or 10K Hz. Or alternately, I might want to take some modern edge off and use a wide-ranging cut somewhere up there, which also makes whatever is going on in the mids stand out more.

For a modern slap tone with my rig, I might do some boosting at 60 and/or 80 Hz, and if I want to "thicken" for playing further up the neck on the higher-pitched strings, besides looking at lower mids I might also do a little boost in the upper bass. Or if I want "tight" I might roll off some mid-bass and/or sub-bass, depending on the exact vibe I'm after.

And as you say, that also has to do with band mix and shouldn't be judged right in front of the cab, but further out, until one gets a grasp on what usually works with their gear and their band.

 

[greenboy]

Eh, something to keep in mind with those PA cabs is that often times the horn is crossed over quite low.

For the good stuff, yeah. But unfortunately a lot of club level PA - and crap PA wannabe stuff that pretends to be real PA to the inexperienced - often has HF horns that are too small and of poor quality, and their crossovers are way too high to really give quality sound across a wide horizontal area. But the experienced buyer can see on datasheets where the crossover point is, and what the polars look like if the company is good enough and confident enough to provide real data.

With 12 and 10 + horn cabs, with a giant horn crossed over pretty low, you can get pretty solid off-axis from a two-way. Even with the 15s if the horn is down around 1500hz it's nothing like a bass cab with a 3500/5khz horn.

And this becomes a lot more obvious as you get further back from the stage.

Most of those "pa mains" style cabs need to be crossed over to a sub however, so really they are part of a 3-way system

Ya, a lot of club-level Pa was designed with the assumption that subs would be there, so the mains woofers aren't always capable of much excursion, and the boxes aren't always tuned or sized for large low end.

 

[PBass101]

Dare to be different. Examples of scoopers in Rock would be Entwistle and T. Petersson of Cheap Trick. They make up for it by sheer volume and and both carve out their own sonic territory in their respective situations.

Careful with the blanket statements folks. I never had trouble hearing either of these guys.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Listen to some clips of this, from 2000. Sounds to me like John cut upper mids but boosted treble and lower midrange. I don't know if you can call that properly "scooped." Also he's banging the strings against the frets, which is a sound unto itself.

 

[will33]

Bass
Sub bass: 31 Hz to 62 Hz (and below)
Mid bass: 62 Hz to 125 Hz
Upper bass: 125 Hz to 250 Hz

Midrange
Lower midrange: 250 Hz to 500 Hz
Mid midrange: 500 Hz to 1K Hz
Upper midrange: 1K Hz to 2K Hz

Treble
Lower treble: 2K Hz to 4K Hz
Mid treble: 4K Hz to 8K Hz
Upper treble: 8K Hz to 16K Hz (and above)

This can help the discussion a lot instead of people just saying mids, mids, mids all the time. Pretty good ranges too.

For myself, when I'm trying to explain things I'd extend the "upper mids" to about 3k, still some string twang or "edginess" there. 3-4k is "old school treble" thinking paper cone, not tweeter.

Your's makes a little more sense as it's broken up into octaves.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

I'm sorry but I don't agree with the common "mid scoop is bad, mmm'kay... / get lost in the mix..mmm'kay." crap I read daily here.

Some of us hear ourselves just fine by the low end / fundamental notes we are playing. I don't need a honky-ass midrangey tone to be heard by others either.

I often prefer a tone that sits UNDER the band, as in "bassy sounding" and hear myself just fine - the midrange is totally crammed full of guitars / vocals / keyboards / etc - so boosting the **** out of your mids just seems to clutter up the sound alot of the time. I'm not trying to bulldoze my way into the mix so I can "cut through". I'm a ****ing bass player, not some solo bass-wanker. I like solid low end that SUPPORTS the band.

This depends entirely on the band, style of music, etc. There is no one right way. If you like a scooped sound, then scoop.

I am tired of hearing this "Mids, mids, more mids, boost the crap out of your mids until everyone hates you and you sound like Jaco's ass-trumpet." thing that I read every single day here. Think for yourself and use YOUR ears.

 

[attackbass]

I scoop my mids out on my stage amp - an orange ad200b. It sounds great and doesn't get lost in onstage mix. The amps treble provides for me enough of the strings rattle of the note and the bass 'omph of the note' without having to honk it up with mids.

I can understand that perhaps on small gigs you need to have mids to cut through for the audience to hear the bass. I play big to huge halls so also have a soundguy who takes a combination of DIs so god knows what he does out front but it sounds great!

I'm actually going to IEMs on my bands next tour, and my sound engineer has suggested cutting all treble and high mids and boosting the bass etc- so that i get the feel of the bass rig onstage as ill have the di tones in my IEMs - he said it will also help him as he wont have as much junk flying around the venue!

 

[BDL1991]

cutting the treble and high mids will theoretically leave your tone..too omphy and not as much definition i would have thought

 

[Gearhead43]

 

[Fuzzbass]

I agree with Gearhead. It's just plain silly to define a mid scoop as a bad thing. Many bass amps are scooped when flat, and even if not, they include a "contour" switch that cuts mids -- that Fletcher-Munson curve equates to dollars for good reason. The famous Sadowsky preamp is boost-only treble and bass. If you boost treble and bass, you are cutting mids.

Sure, cutting midrange can sound bad. So what? Boosting midrange can sound bad. Leaving everything flat can sound bad. The bottom line is that tone should be determined with our ears, not our eyes.

I will acknowledge that a common rookie mistake is to scoop heavily because it can sound good when playing solo, and then wonder why bass is lost in the mix. That said, I know some very good and very busy local bassists who use a U or V shape on their EQ, and they get great tone.

 

[lowstrung5]

Too much E.Q. in any direction can cause problems in a mix. Of course, what I think sounds like mid scooped mud might be your cup of tea. Then again, you might be going for that sound. It's also a matter of fact that overloaded frequencies in a mix causes mud, feedback, and other problems. Mids do help define the sound to the listener but is irritating if overdone. First, figure out if how you sound in a mix is the way you WANT to sound. Take some time to figure out what E.Q. changes do to your bass sound. Get or borrow someones wireless and give it a try. Most players never do this and don't have a clue. It may open your ears!

 

[Sifl]

On my GK400RB, I have the high mids at 1ish o'clock and the low mids at 3ish o'clock. So much growl with my P. Sounds great solo and with my band.

 

[anonymous073020132]

HECK NO! Mid boost between 200 & 500hz How the heck else would I be able to push past 2 dooms day SG weilding guitar freaks in my band.

 

[StefTD]

It depends on the mix!
In some cases it's not bad to scoop the mids but it's all about the context.

For Example:
A modern rock band with heavy distorted guitars should leave the bass to the bass, the
guitars just get muddy if there's to much lowend, so you can high pass the guitars to
100hz or something, cut a bit around 300-400hz, so these are areas where the bass
could sit, but in the parts around 500-800hz where the guitars have more of their
mid-mids (yeah, I know strange term) it would be good to scoop the mids to leave more
room for the guitars because this music is very guitar orientated most of the time, that's it.
In a jazz band with cleaner sounds or a blues band, middier bass sounds are better most
of the time, it's all about the context, there are no rules.
Pantera for example played metal but handeld it different than I said in the beginning,
Dime scooped all the mids out of his guitar so Rex had a very middy bass sound.
I like mids on my bass, I like to play my bass with the fingers with a lighter touch, but if
needed I scoop some mids, distort the high end, play hard with a pick, it should be about
the music and not the ego of the player.

 

[TimWilson]

The worst bassist in rock plays with the worst sound in rock by scooping all his mids. If his sound isn't enough to send you spinning that mid control clockwise, nothing will. But I won't open up that can o' worms, cause his fans think I'm out in left fieldy.

 

[Gnobility]

I'm pretty sure Dave Barry would agree that Jaco's Ass-Trumpet would make an excellent name for a rock band.

Gn