Maybe there needs to be a refocus to this thread to bring it back onto a positive track. Maybe OP really just wants to play the EB and play jazz? If OP doesn't want to play the DB that should be OK on some level right? If we are all secure in what we know or want out of life then we don't need to condescend right? Now for my defense of the DB for jazz. The DB has a deep history with the sound/vibe/feel of jazz and blues. It is an inherently soulful instrument that demands a finesse and discipline to play proficiently, hence the fanatic dedication it demands from us who pick it up. It sounds wonderful with other acoustic instruments. You, your fingers and the bass body make the sound, not the amp, pickup etc. The DB may not be the instrument for the OP and as mentioned you can't come in here and trash the instrument without expecting a fight. Back up, ask some intelligent questions about how you can learn to adopt an open attitude toward learning a very difficult instrument. Also go to live jazz show, sit as close as you can to the stage and check out a good DB jazz player.
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Double Bass Appreciating the Upright Bass
- Thread starter TunnelPig
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You know what? I lived in New Orleans for many years. I played with some Charles Neville and many funky ass NOLA musicians. You should look into the schools down there.
There is more funk than you could ever hope to find anywhere else and it would be excellent for your pocket and future. I upped and moved to NOLA many years ago with an electric and a cheap plywood bass. I was a chops master on electric and figured that's what I would basically play and the cats down there wanted me to do my funky thing on the upright. It was hard but it really helped me scale back on the flash and dig deeper into the funk. Living and playing there changed my whole concept of music and brought me into worlds I would have never expected (cajun, zydeco, mardigras, blues, R&B) coming from a white middle class suburban background. Bold moves net bold results.
There is more funk than you could ever hope to find anywhere else and it would be excellent for your pocket and future. I upped and moved to NOLA many years ago with an electric and a cheap plywood bass. I was a chops master on electric and figured that's what I would basically play and the cats down there wanted me to do my funky thing on the upright. It was hard but it really helped me scale back on the flash and dig deeper into the funk. Living and playing there changed my whole concept of music and brought me into worlds I would have never expected (cajun, zydeco, mardigras, blues, R&B) coming from a white middle class suburban background. Bold moves net bold results.
I'm normally not prone to snark, and I apologize for stooping to that, but if my attitude is condescending, its not toward your instrument of choice, but to your OWN incredibly condescending and disrespectful remarks in the opening post. Saying inflammatory stuff like that to this group and expecting a completely civil response (and I've seen far more severe here in response to less aggregious posts) goes beyond realistic expectations.
That said, I do wish you luck in your scholastic endeavors. I am constantly awed by my students' abilities on bass guitar, an instrument that I confess to play in what I consider a fairly rudimentarly fashion. All instruments have their challenges, and its great to see you at least have the wisdom to admit that there is always more to learn.
I'll give you props for coming back in your Thread and trying to handle some heat, because I thought you might run.
Look, you come into a DB Forum and expose yourself to criticsm by telling a buncha' cold hearted DB lovers and many well known pros here in the jazz genre who've been living this music for most of their lives, myownself included, how much you hate our love.
In the end.......go play yer slab.
Look, you come into a DB Forum and expose yourself to criticsm by telling a buncha' cold hearted DB lovers and many well known pros here in the jazz genre who've been living this music for most of their lives, myownself included, how much you hate our love.
In the end.......go play yer slab.
1) ACOUSTIC:
Join an informal all-acoustic jam session, a regular one. Get goofy with it, ham it up, take a cliché (musical or physicality) and exaggerate it, poke fun at your professor and the punters. Even ABGs get eaten alive at an all acoustic session, and amps have no place at such a jam. You'll likely be the only bass player there, fully appreciated.
2) FUN KEY:
Get the funk out – Practice your funk on it, or other genres/music/songs/tunes you love – this is key. (Personally, I love the sound of funky DB!)
3) THINK LONGTERM:
Stick with it, don't be a quitter; Quit when you have the luxury to do so – there is a light at the end of the tunnel, graduation. When you graduate, you're done with it and won't have to deal with it ever again. (Albeit, knowing that you'll lose gigs/$$$ if you refuse to double). Ultimately, you must show your future employers you're not a quitter and can get the job done. Meanwhile, remember the carrot on the stick when you're plodding along. You'll get the carrot at the end of the journey. Yada Yadda...
I wish I knew how to play BG, but I'm just starting on DB. I took up DB because I wasn't getting anywhere on geetar (*amongst other reasons). DB spoke to me, late in life, and as soon as I took up DB my musical world cracked wide open.
Good Luck!
Join an informal all-acoustic jam session, a regular one. Get goofy with it, ham it up, take a cliché (musical or physicality) and exaggerate it, poke fun at your professor and the punters. Even ABGs get eaten alive at an all acoustic session, and amps have no place at such a jam. You'll likely be the only bass player there, fully appreciated.
2) FUN KEY:
Get the funk out – Practice your funk on it, or other genres/music/songs/tunes you love – this is key. (Personally, I love the sound of funky DB!)
3) THINK LONGTERM:
Stick with it, don't be a quitter; Quit when you have the luxury to do so – there is a light at the end of the tunnel, graduation. When you graduate, you're done with it and won't have to deal with it ever again. (Albeit, knowing that you'll lose gigs/$$$ if you refuse to double). Ultimately, you must show your future employers you're not a quitter and can get the job done. Meanwhile, remember the carrot on the stick when you're plodding along. You'll get the carrot at the end of the journey. Yada Yadda...
I wish I knew how to play BG, but I'm just starting on DB. I took up DB because I wasn't getting anywhere on geetar (*amongst other reasons). DB spoke to me, late in life, and as soon as I took up DB my musical world cracked wide open.
Good Luck!
This is really good advice. Pretty much the first words out of my mouth as well, just without the personal context.
And this came from others as well.
You're in NJ, go to Smalls and spend the whole night near the stage, you'll either leave with something more valuable than we could tell you here or you won't, but then you'll know. No one is going to try to convince you otherwise, but the music might. If it's too far from where you are, you can stay in the Jane Hotel for $99. A small price to pay vs sticking with a program that isn't what you want to do with your life. But, I will say this, you are mistaken that you will be in equal demand as a professional jazz bassist on electric as you would have been on DB. Funk, Fusion, other great types of music, sure, but not jazz, certainly not classical. I don't know what your career goals are, but don't stay convinced that it doesn't matter if you think you might want to be a professional jazz bassist.
First of all: I did try to help you, but you missed it because you've got a German bow up your ***. Second: No. I belong here, you're a visitor. If one of us is going to disappear, it's not going to be me.
Who am I? Pretty much nobody, but some of things you've said to some of the other guys on this thread...well, if you aren't willing to say them to your professor, then you shouldn't be willing to say them here to them either.
The most important skill a jazz musician can develop, regardless of instrument? The ability to listen and hear. You need to work on that or as Jake says "get off my lawn."
The sound is in your head and in your hands - not in the instrument. Playing arco helps develop the sound in your hands. You'll be surprised how it affects your playing after some real time put into it. Most EB players have crappy tone naturally and have to resort to gear to overcome it. Their tone has no meat whatsoever. It's rare I hear an EB player that has great tone. Most of it is this thin tinny lifeless thing. (Marcus Miller comes to mind). You should consider that one of the best bassists ever (Stanley Clarke) totally rips on DB and try to understand why he still continues to gig with it. Victor Wooten also doubles.
When your teacher condescends... maybe you should try understanding where they're coming from and you might learn a thing or two. Your teacher shows you things for a reason and if that reason wasn't "worth it", they wouldn't be telling you that you need to do this.
If you want to just walk away with a piece of paper saying you did something, you're doing it for all the wrong reasons. That's what I hate about colleges these days, they're turning Bachelor degrees into highschool diplomas. Cody's post is spot on. College isn't about jumping through a couple hoops, getting a piece of paper and a pat on the back. You have to grow as a player and a person otherwise you don't belong there. And sometimes it means opening your mind to things you don't want to do at first.
When your teacher condescends... maybe you should try understanding where they're coming from and you might learn a thing or two. Your teacher shows you things for a reason and if that reason wasn't "worth it", they wouldn't be telling you that you need to do this.
If you want to just walk away with a piece of paper saying you did something, you're doing it for all the wrong reasons. That's what I hate about colleges these days, they're turning Bachelor degrees into highschool diplomas. Cody's post is spot on. College isn't about jumping through a couple hoops, getting a piece of paper and a pat on the back. You have to grow as a player and a person otherwise you don't belong there. And sometimes it means opening your mind to things you don't want to do at first.
I went to college as an electric player. I didn't really want to learn DB. Then I heard Miles Davis' My Funny Valentine/4+ More '64 Live Concert and I wanted to do THAT. I'm sure you remember a recording that made you want to play EB. I suggest doing some research. See if you can find a DB that speaks to you.
I will say that your attitude is part of the problem though. I suspect that until you change the way you feel about DB you can listen all you want and it won't help. Reread your posts. There are LOTS of VERY negative statements in your posts. Open your mind a bit.
I will say that your attitude is part of the problem though. I suspect that until you change the way you feel about DB you can listen all you want and it won't help. Reread your posts. There are LOTS of VERY negative statements in your posts. Open your mind a bit.
I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize for jumping the gun on your last post. It's just that that last sentence or two sounds just like the kind of thing my peers or professors would say. They act like they're a member of some kind of elite club looking down on others when ultimately, we are all bassists at the end of the day.
When you suggest the Vance method, I assume you are talking about books like the Vade Mecum which is actually where I get all my scale assignments from. That's the only one I have by him though, if there are any other books you can recommend I'm all ears.
Thanks!!!! I appreciate it. I know that refusing to play double bass will limit the types of gigs I can get; and I like jazz just fine, but I feel as though I'm more into this curriculum for what I can learn about other genres that evolved out of jazz (for instance funk and fusion, two styles that I listen to a lot more and are a lot more BG friendly.) I'd much rather be gigging on those.
There's this twisted joke that my upright professor always makes about how if you don't want to play the double bass, you can go look into a career in farming. I normally don't respond when he says **** like that because it's just horrible but in my head, I'm thinking "yeah, farming would be about as fun for me as playing jazz gigs on this upright would." JUST my personal feelings, I think it's great that you were able to pick up this instrument, especially later in life.
EDIT: Also this man's post is the most helpful in the thread by far.
Maybe you should check out an institution that's more slabby-jazz friendly? Does Jeff Berlin still do that Players thing? Or Berklee, maybe. They love anyone with a solvent checking account there, from what I've heard.
I see nothing wrong with playing whatever music you like on a bass makes the sound you hear in your head. Obviously you feel strongly about it, because you are still here in our sandbox, happily pooping all over our little club, and making us all grumpy.
The worst thing for you would probably be to continue spending money taking instruction from someone who plays A DIFFERENT INSTRUMENT than you do.
I see nothing wrong with playing whatever music you like on a bass makes the sound you hear in your head. Obviously you feel strongly about it, because you are still here in our sandbox, happily pooping all over our little club, and making us all grumpy.
The worst thing for you would probably be to continue spending money taking instruction from someone who plays A DIFFERENT INSTRUMENT than you do.
Eric Hochberg is not a random name on the Internet. He is a professional musician and teacher, who took the time to respond to your horribly formed entrance into this community.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
TunnelPig is, in contrast, a random psudonym on the internet. You seem to be demanding a certain level of respect that you are not offering. Therein lies the problem.
The truth is this, there are probably more playing opportunities across all genres on bass guitar than there are on doublebass. It's a fine choice. No one here is looking down on you for feeling the way that you do.
You've gotten a lot of good advice in this thread, but I think most of it has been lost on you, because you've got a chip on your shoulder. It's a shame, people did try to help you and whatever pushback you got is, as others have suggested really mild for this group considering how you approached us. Maybe your professor is an elitist who's talking down to you because he doesn't like your guitar or maybe he's reacting to the same thing we are. After all, you did come to him and this is what he teaches...and you did come to us and this is what we do.
If you're really looking for doublebass inspiration, I'll throw one more thing at you: Charnett Moffett. I don't see video of him on his website playing doublebass, but try YouTube. As you can see, he's a great bass guitarist too. If it reaches you, see if you can get a lesson from him (I think he's NY based). If you do, for the love of Pete, try not to be a dick.
Tunnel, I have to agree with Troy's post. You may want to check the credits of some of the names on this thread. Paul, Marcus, Jason, Ed and others have a history on this instrument (and very credible discographies) probably longer than you have been alive.
I understand where you are coming from, and some of the advice does have a tendency to piss someone off if taken in the wrong context, but it is advice that once you really think about what is being said, comes from years of experience. I have played slab for decades, and came back to upright just a few years ago, and I thought my previous history and a bit of catch up would get me through. I was wrong. Having no real history with the instrument, yeah, I got slammed, and had a lot of seemingly condescending attitudes thrown my way, but it's all good advice that I am getting from people still out there doing it. I have yet to get on a bass guitar site, and see Geddy Lee, Stanley Clarke or Flea as a regular poster, the way I see Marc Johnson, or Paul Warburton on this side. Every one of these guys can play circles around me, and I know it.
Even though I don't particularly care for the jazz medium (I am actually a folkie/blues/acoustic rocker) the advice on technique, phrasing, and general playing of the instrument is invaluable to me. Maybe you need to find a double bass 'hero'. An artist who plays the instrument that you can relate to musically and look up to. For me this is Danny Thompson. This is what has kept me striving on this instrument after considering giving it up, and going back to bass guitar exclusively for the last several years.
I understand where you are coming from, and some of the advice does have a tendency to piss someone off if taken in the wrong context, but it is advice that once you really think about what is being said, comes from years of experience. I have played slab for decades, and came back to upright just a few years ago, and I thought my previous history and a bit of catch up would get me through. I was wrong. Having no real history with the instrument, yeah, I got slammed, and had a lot of seemingly condescending attitudes thrown my way, but it's all good advice that I am getting from people still out there doing it. I have yet to get on a bass guitar site, and see Geddy Lee, Stanley Clarke or Flea as a regular poster, the way I see Marc Johnson, or Paul Warburton on this side. Every one of these guys can play circles around me, and I know it.
Even though I don't particularly care for the jazz medium (I am actually a folkie/blues/acoustic rocker) the advice on technique, phrasing, and general playing of the instrument is invaluable to me. Maybe you need to find a double bass 'hero'. An artist who plays the instrument that you can relate to musically and look up to. For me this is Danny Thompson. This is what has kept me striving on this instrument after considering giving it up, and going back to bass guitar exclusively for the last several years.
Here is a link for Charnett Moffett
Charnett Moffett bass solo, African Village, Mccoy Tyner 4tet, Vienne 2002 - YouTube
Charnett Moffett bass solo, African Village, Mccoy Tyner 4tet, Vienne 2002 - YouTube
I'm an electric/ABG bassist, so I'm really just very fan-ish when it comes to DB. I really appreciate a DB played well.
Watch this:
Richard Thompson - Mingus Eyes - YouTube
The sound at 0:39-0:40 when Danny Thompson hits the low note...OOOOOHHH!!!
Nothing else but a great big double bass makes that sound. To me, that's the holy grail bass sound! Purists may disagree, but to me this is THE bass sound.
Funny how it's in a song that evokes the name of a great bassist!
In addition, Danny Thompson's discography:
Up to 2006.
Invalid Link Removed
I'd call that a career. I'd call that regular work. We should all be so lucky.
Watch this:
Richard Thompson - Mingus Eyes - YouTube
The sound at 0:39-0:40 when Danny Thompson hits the low note...OOOOOHHH!!!
Nothing else but a great big double bass makes that sound. To me, that's the holy grail bass sound! Purists may disagree, but to me this is THE bass sound.
Funny how it's in a song that evokes the name of a great bassist!
In addition, Danny Thompson's discography:
Up to 2006.
Invalid Link Removed
I'd call that a career. I'd call that regular work. We should all be so lucky.
Yeah, I found that most of the guys you mentioned had good advice to offer. I'm going to try to check out NOLA if and when I can, whether it be through doing a semester there or otherwise.
I don't know man, the BG side of this very site has some pretty accomplished players logging on as well, up to par with the players here. Michael Manring? Definitely, though I see the point you're trying to make.
I think you're right. Given that I've always had BG heroes it would only make sense that finding a DB one could open it up for me more. I look forward to the search.
Beautiful. Just about everybody that has challenged TunnelPig used his real name. If not, the real name is in the signature or maybe one click away on a link.
Yikes, that's kinda patronizing!
I'll paraphrase you, just to play devil's advocate:
It's not easy for old farts (like you & me) to retain some youthful piss, vinegar, & single-minded focus; but it sure is recommended! :^D
Bebop is not some educational avenue for when bright young musicians decide to learn the hard chords.
Doublebass is beautiful. The dynamics and nuance you can achieve and enjoy standing right next to a resonating thing is totally radical. But I think it takes a little bit of an appreciation for raw beauty to enjoy these things. I am a romantic, and beauty I otherwise could only imagine manifests on the bass. I'm not even that good. It's such a nice canvas for creating a world as you think it ought to be.
When I was 20, I was only interested in listening or playing music that was constantly viscerally exciting in a way that was beyond the moment-to-moment musical content. I wanted music to be an analog of the more verbal ways of imagining the world that I was more comfortable with. Now I'm totally different. I could have probably had the same philosophical change and ended up getting serious about a completely different style of music, though.
Maybe this stuff is a little off topic, but I always think about these things when I consider what younger people must be going through.
PS, I think it's okay to be anonymous on the internet. These guys with their real names are totally new school.
Doublebass is beautiful. The dynamics and nuance you can achieve and enjoy standing right next to a resonating thing is totally radical. But I think it takes a little bit of an appreciation for raw beauty to enjoy these things. I am a romantic, and beauty I otherwise could only imagine manifests on the bass. I'm not even that good. It's such a nice canvas for creating a world as you think it ought to be.
When I was 20, I was only interested in listening or playing music that was constantly viscerally exciting in a way that was beyond the moment-to-moment musical content. I wanted music to be an analog of the more verbal ways of imagining the world that I was more comfortable with. Now I'm totally different. I could have probably had the same philosophical change and ended up getting serious about a completely different style of music, though.
Maybe this stuff is a little off topic, but I always think about these things when I consider what younger people must be going through.
PS, I think it's okay to be anonymous on the internet. These guys with their real names are totally new school.
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