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Are All-Fourth tunings overrated ?

Hi all,
Pretty new here. I've been playing bass for 1 year and a half. I mostly wasted decades going at the guitar in all the possible ways… or close.

I like bass in many ways, it finally allowed me to set a proper foundation to my musical adventure.
So far, I own only one bass, tuned standard. I wonder about buying a 5th strings but it is mostly gas as I don't really need one to play the pop/rock I try to cover.
I tuned my guitar in all-4th for a while, even remove a string. So I'm familiar with all-4th tuning on more than 4 strings.

At this point my G string sees really few action. Actually a lot of frets are not seeing much action at all.
My experience at this point, out of the +/-25 songs I know, is that the G string is hardly use. It is also my opinion that the G string sounds, if not bad, different from the others three strings which can be nice. More often than not I prefer to shift a lick down the neck than to involve the G string.

My limited experience that most of the groove are played on the E A and D, actually a hypothetical low B string is more likely to get involved than the G string. From there I would assert that whenever the G string is involved, it is mostly for melody playing.
I would say that the same is true for a lot of advanced players, often jazz players. A significant part of the range of the instrument is dedicated to melody and chord playing.

In that context, which can be discuss obviously, I think all-4th tuning are not the best solution to the challenge musicians face. Tom Quayle gave an interesting interview on the matter, and actually stated he regrets to have chosen that path. There are centuries of researches and experiences behind the many different tunings used on the many existing chordophones in existence. Latin America is a treasure on that matter.
From what I gathered, quiet a while ago, the «bass» used 3 strings tuned GDA. Germans proposed the still in used EADG that made playing some parts easier but was less resonant than all-5th (that debate remains after centuries as people still advocate for all-5th tuning if not for the extra range but for the resonance).
When that standard was set, the usage of the instrument was quiet different from where modern players, backed by modern technologies, have pushed the instrument.

I do not intend to try to convince people that already know their ways around the instrument to change theirs ways. The title I chose was on purpose on the provocative side but the point remains : is an all-4th tuning the best solution for modern bass players which playing consist on holding a groove and for the advanced/gifted more «melodic» playing (which resolve on playing chords and arpeggios).

I toyed with a all-5th tuning derivative and I was not happy with it. I decide to try something as when I try to play melodically there are things that bother me with all-4th especially on the 3 highest strings. I especially dislike the root position of many simple triads whether if I intend to play them as a chord or an arpeggio.
I decide to detune my G string to F# and it solved many issue for me. The intervalle of a major third is common on many tunings I tried which includes std guitar tuning and it makes a lot of things more practical.
I wonder about making that change permanent. First I like how the «g» string sounds better than in std tuning (nb 105-45). Then, I have not encountered issues playing the songs I already know. More often than not, I actually the fingering more «natural». I've no difficulty hitting octave and actually it is more easy for me to land a power chord (1 5 1) with the offset introduced by the major 3rd. The bonus is chords and noodling, it feels like an almost different instruments which it is not (I wish the instrument just got better and me too as we are at it XO ).

Back to my concern with range. It is a minimal loss of range compared to std tuning, you could not loose less actually (a semitone). For an «improviser» or composer, aka somebody not concerned about how such a change could affect the songs it covers, a modern instrument, with 24 fret, tuned D G C E cover the same range as 21 fret instrument in drop D, actually exceed the range of such an instrument tuned std, lot of chording possibility in the high range. I guess EADF# is fine but outside of cover I assume most bassists would go with the extra low notes.

If I pushed to 5 strings. BEADF# sounds like the logical choice. The type of things played on bass and ergonomics make that you want lots of strings tuned in 4th. I tried to tuned DGBE, it doesn't fit with the instrument usage. I would think the same of ADGBE: weird compared to ADGCE. It is not a guitar, usage are different but my point is that it is not the major 3rd alone that makes the guitar what it is, neither the all-4th tuning that makes the bass.

Down the line, for 6 strings, assessing my experience with all-4th tuning on guitar, BEADGC seems like a really «weird» choice, with no disrespect to the famous players that use that tuning.
They will noodle a lot, in the highs, play chords, etc hence the high C but too me going for a high C for the sake of symmetry, is kind of ignoring other symmetries as having the same note on the outer strings of the instrument (no a known string) but also from your D string how you find the same note two frets up and down on the G and high C (if you tune in B).
I'm not sure I would want to use a guitar like tuning (BEADF#B) as I always tried to stir away from that tuning.
6 strings is troublesome though, say you tuned EADF#, moved to BEADF#, and finally go all the way to six… you end up with a guitar like tuning. It is likely a bassist, would favor BEADGB which implies learning a new string (G). Anyway I won't move to 6 strings, I'm iffy about 5 and for most bassist, the point is moot. If there is a discussion it is about a high C or a high B (I would obviously advocate for the later).

I agree in advance to statement such as to each his own (ways) though I wish people will consider what I wrote it says and not for «he played guitar, etc» (*) or reinventing the wheel. Etc.
I'm not sure so much though was put into deciding the bass tuning, others strings instruments were tuned in fifth, scale length was an issue : easy answer all-4th. Good enough, sure used to this day. Now as I stated the usage case were quite different from modern (mostly electric) bass playing.

What are your view on the matter ? I don't want to be an oddlier for the sake of it but I really wonder if «the science has really settled» on the matter. EADF# is amenable to most usage, can be «dropped», may allow to cover most of the existing repertoire but allows for more ergonomic chording and fingering up and down the neck.


* on the matter of guitar, I hardly touch it anymore, and thanks to a members here, I considered a luth like tuning (EADF#BE) and I'm happy I did. Feels fresh. I like the vibe better. There more symmetry in it (2 groups of 3 strings tuned in fourth), and I like the voicing I get a lot.
 
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My view, is there’s several decades of good music made with 4-string EADG-tuned basses and later, 5-string BEADG basses. So tuning in fourths can’t be all bad.

Having said all that, tuning in fourths is not the law of the land. Not etched in stone.

Respectfully, I think your time would be better spent just trying and working with different tunings rather than writing paragraph after paragraph of thoughts on the subject and the time to read the ensuing posts of paragraph after paragraph that’s bound to follow.

Respectfully, of course….😁
 
Exactly, just like 4/4 is vastly overrated.

I like all fourth tuning though.

4/4 is nice too, but not any nicer than any other time signature/meter in existence.

Luckily I am not tied down to 4/4, I was set free of it's dictatorship years ago and play whatever meter/time signature I feel like, wherever the music leads me.

If you feel all fourth tuning limiting then try all fifth, another very traditional and common tuning, or some other alternate tuning.

Set the music free, and led it guide you, instead of the other way around.

Too many way too beaten horses.
 
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Tuning standards evolved over time because they offer the path of least resistance for learning the instrument to the majority of players. However, a standard isn’t law and you can tune the instrument according to your needs. A lot of metal players experiment with alternate tunings so it’s not an outlandish idea.
 
1) My view, is there’s several decades of good music made with 4-string EADG-tuned basses and later, 5-string BEADG basses. So tuning in fourths can’t be all bad.

Having said all that, tuning in fourths is not the law of the land. Not etched in stone.

2)Respectfully, I think your time would be better spent just trying and working with different tunings rather than writing paragraph after paragraph of thoughts on the subject and the time to read the ensuing posts of paragraph after paragraph that’s bound to follow.

Respectfully, of course….😁
1) Sure it ain't, not what I was trying to convey. Actually I hesitate to shift «for good» as for what I do, the G string as it is does not bother me. It is more than when I don't play groove tuning it a semitone down does marvel for triads and some fingering with few downside.
.
2) You are right, I tried to present my pov in an organized manner which took me time, the post is quite long XO.
I have an idea that the real good musicians, sometime they hardly know what they are doing. I remember watching vid of guys wandering about how they do things when asked as they never considered it. The gifted, they have the music, the instrument is the tool, whatever it is it becomes an extension of them.
They are not necessarily the ones to improve or consider new approach even if it is better. Once the masters have established their ways they are complicated if not impossible to change. Not my point. People opposed the shifted from GDA to EADG, some still favor the sound of fifth tuning.

I was just discussing a pretty minimal change not setting a iron curtain and forbid all-4th tuning ;)
 
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1) Sure it ain't, not what I was trying to convey. Actually I hesitate to shift «for good» as for what I do, the G string as it is does not bother me. It is more than when I don't play groove tuning it a semitone down does marvel for triads and some fingering with few downside.
.
2) You are right, I tried to present my pov in an organized manner which took me time, the post is quite long XO.
I have an idea that the real good musicians, sometime they hardly know what they are doing. I remember watching vid of guys wandering about how they do things when asked as they never considered it. The gifted, they have the music, the instrument is the tool, whatever it is it becomes an extension of them.
They are not necessarily the ones to improve or consider new approach even if it is better. Once the masters have established it is complicated change ways if not impossible to change their ways. Not my point. People opposed the shifted from GDA to EADG, some still favor the sound of fifth tuning.

I was just discussing a pretty minimal change not setting a iron curtain and forbid all-4th tuning ;)

I think you're asking valid questions. I am with the majority because I think fourths are practical for bass. But if you're an artist, you have to question everything!

I think the highest-in-pitch string is always going to be the oddity. The E string on violin is similarly problematic. It's not surrounded in the same way. It needs extra love.
 
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If it works for you, it works for you. Jameson made a decade of memorable music with a bass most people supposedly could barely play.
That is the weird part, it seems to work for me and I'm surprised by the little impact it has on songs I know (pop/rock mostly) compare to the benefits.
I feel like something must off and I don't see it. I dislike altering my tuning, learning a new string (even though I'm familiar with the intervals), changing habits.
So I will give it a hard think before shifting, I can do it in all-4th too. Lots of groove, they are not technically demanding (I mean wrt to fingering), it is more about time feel, dynamic.

Ex. the trooper and the number of the beast intro, I find them easier to finger with a F#. In most the stuff I play, I don't touch the G string.
«I want you back» when the C power chord is played it – interleaved with the melody– is also easier to me, I open my hand and it falls more naturally under my fingers than if I try to keep my ring and little finger together (which in turn feels right the normal way with the bass played on the E string).

I overthink all that. Bass is my main instrument now, I don't want to mess it up as it brings me a lot of joy.
 
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Exactly, just like 4/4 is vastly overrated.

I like all fourth tuning though.

4/4 is nice too, but not any nicer than any other time signature/meter in existence.

Luckily I am not tied down to 4/4, I was set free of it's dictatorship years ago and play whatever meter/time signature I feel like, wherever the music leads me.

If you feel all fourth tuning limiting then try all fifth, another very traditional and common tuning, or some other alternate tuning.

Set the music free, and led it guide you, instead of the other way around.

Too many way too beaten horses.
What is your point about «fake» 4/4, actual 2/2 that written and even «considered» as 4/4 for the sake of practicalities ? XO
 
Given what was said about the G string, I was expecting a preference for a EG#CE tuning to be expressed.
Never tried.
Once I got my bass, I toyed a little with EACE which was fun, never tried that.
I shortly stop as I wanted to play a pretty traditional set of songs and got to use something std and proven.

What I just wrote is at odd with the whole thread but— it could because of decades of guitar no matter the miss practice– by down tuning the G string I don't feel like wandering far off.
 
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What is your point about «fake» 4/4, actual 2/2 that written and even «considered» as 4/4 for the sake of practicalities ? XO
My point is that western music is dominated by 4/4, and to a much lesser extend 3/4, you rarely encounter any other time signatures if you stick to mainstream traditional western music.

While other time signatures are quite common in traditional music from other regions of the world.

There is 5/4, 7/4, 11/8, and many other time signatures, beside that.

And there is nothing odd or unnatural about them, it just seems so because we have been brainwashed with 4/4.
 
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Drop D (DADG) is not that unusual... fifth fourth fourth.

And there is nothing odd or unnatural about them, it just seems so because we have been brainwashed with 4/4.
"Brainwashed" is kinda harsh. It's a meter we internalize from a young age and is reinforced by the environment around us, which is full of music. You can call it brainwashing if you like but it's more like a property of the culture you live in, same as your preferences for food and clothing.
 
historically, bass instruments have been tuned many, many ways.

the original bass instrument would have been some sort of viol (renaissance era.) More likely than not tuned something like D G C E A D. This then spawned every alternative you can dream of over the following centuries, ending with our modern "Standard" tuning for both orchestral and electric basses, E A D G.

throughout there, some tried 5ths, combinations of 4ths, 5ths, and 3rds, all sorts of ways.

It's more likely than not that the centuries of experimentation have brought us to a happy medium since "Everything has already been tried." There's something to be said for trusting the endless experimentation of the past. But, if you find something fits your needs, trying it may be a good idea for you.

there are countless examples of this. I play 6 string basses, not that crazy, but i "need" them for things I do. Lots of fine players these days do high C 5 strings. some players stay with drop D.

I think being aware of your level of experience and expertise, but also finding what suits you, is a good idea.
 
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My limited experience that most of the groove are played on the E A and D, actually a hypothetical low B string is more likely to get involved than the G string.
There's a whole lot of people here devoted to BEAD tuning. I have it on one bass and it works well for the project I use it for. I'd definitely recommend if the songs call for it.

Personally I won't touch non-uniform tunings. A lot of bass playing is about movable patterns (or at least the way I think about it). For any note, the octave is 2 up, 2 across. I don't want to mess with that.

But do what works for you...
 
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Conversely, I remember there was a local teacher who was touting all 4ths tuning for the guitar. Sounded like an interesting idea to me. (But I might be biased; the consistency & "symmetry" of all 4ths is part of what drew me to bass early on.)
I never worked with this guy or saw him playing out – so I'm not sure how well that departure from orthodoxy really served him... at least for the purpose of performing with groups in public.
Maybe that just wasn't his thing. (That's certainly been the case for plenty of people who stayed with standard tuning.)
If you want to play out on an EADF# bass, I expect that wouldn't be too difficult; especially if you're coming from guitar. :bassist:
 
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Tuning a bass guitar to perfect 4ths isn't necessarily highly rated, or rated at all. It's not even a rule of music. It's just a tuning convention. Different stringed instruments use different tuning conventions. Cello generally tunes to 5ths. Guitars to 4ths, except that one weird string that's a 3rd. There's dozens and dozens of stringed instruments around the world tuned to all sorts of intervals.

Musicians use any number of unconventional tunings to suit their musical needs as desired. You can tune your bass in whatever way helps you achieve your musical goals better. Different tunings neither discredit nor justify tuning to 4ths as a convention. It's just a convention.
 
I've never played cello although I have played with cello players, but it occurs to me that tuned in 4ths, a scale (for example) can be played without moving arm position, while in 5ths you have more distance to go before you switch strings. I have noticed that cello players move their arm position allot. 4ths may make more sense physically for bass register string instruments construction because of more equal tension on the longer neck. (Probably more relevant about bass viol, realize that bass guitar has been around for a minute and is dependent on the electric grid. When the grid goes down they will make good firewood once you remove plastic and screws, fits the fireplace nicely.

also, arguing with centuries established standards is a waste of creative energy Unless you are like Joni Mitchel or slide guitar players and need certain chords to be voiced from one position. These things are higher register oriented, not bass lines. (or are Mark Sandman on a 2 string bass in 5ths, but that gave him a power chord from his glass slide across frets. The variety of music he was able to write using that is quite amazing...

PS the E9 chromatic tuning for ten string pedal steel guitar is B–D–E–F♯–G♯–B–E–G♯–D♯–F♯. I borrowed a pedal steel guitar for awhile and could make music on it right away, it was heavenly.
 
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