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Are All-Fourth tunings overrated ?

#21
MegaSwing said:
Never gave any of this any thought whatsoever. It sounds like borrowing trouble to me. The basic tuning of an instrument has been established for centuries in most cases. How am I going to make it any easier to play by imposing my own arbitrary system upon it?
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The fallacy here is that "imposing your own arbitrary system" is inherently going to mess things up. Avoiding any discussion of psychology, projection, etc... it just doesn't make sense. The tuning of the electric bass (or, by extension, the upright bass) was established in set of particular musical contexts. That tuning happens to work in a lot of music made before and since. But many people today are in the business of playing music that does not adhere to a musical context from 60+ years ago or more. They have different needs and they adapt to those needs accordingly, with their own arbitrary systems. People can simply want different things. People do what works, whether it's something they made up or whether it's common wisdom, or accepted scientific fact.

As it relates to tuning... changing the tuning of your instrument is a great way to find new and different creativity. Is it easier? Probably not, but none of us get in the business of playing music because it's easy. That's not the metric by which I would generally judge my musical endeavors.

I personally just started using a Hipshot Xtender on one of my basses to put it down to Drop D, and it's been both fun and useful. I thought I would get hung up on playing the wrong notes because I'm used to an E string, but that's really not been much of a problem. But even a couple weeks on, during live performances, I've found myself playing lines I wouldn't normally play and making better music doing it.
 
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#23
jdjk7 said:
The fallacy here is that "imposing your own arbitrary system" is inherently going to mess things up. Avoiding any discussion of psychology, projection, etc... it just doesn't make sense. The tuning of the electric bass (or, by extension, the upright bass) was established in set of particular musical contexts. That tuning happens to work in a lot of music made before and since. But many people today are in the business of playing music that does not adhere to a musical context from 60+ years ago or more. They have different needs and they adapt to those needs accordingly, with their own arbitrary systems. People can simply want different things. People do what works, whether it's something they made up or whether it's common wisdom, or accepted scientific fact.

As it relates to tuning... changing the tuning of your instrument is a great way to find new and different creativity. Is it easier? Probably not, but none of us get in the business of playing music because it's easy. That's not the metric by which I would generally judge my musical endeavors.

I personally just started using a Hipshot Xtender on one of my basses to put it down to Drop D, and it's been both fun and useful. I thought I would get hung up on playing the wrong notes because I'm used to an E string, but that's really not been much of a problem. But even a couple weeks on, during live performances, I've found myself playing lines I wouldn't normally play and making better music doing it.
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If it helps you be more musical, far be it from me to say thee nay. My own hands are full trying to deepen my understanding of the status quo.

Everybody’s got a thing.
 
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#24
I think this is largely a non-issue for bass. 4 strings are tuned in 4ths as are 5 strings. So you're really talking about 6 strings basses and who the hell plays those? :laugh:

IMO, the reason guitars are tuned like they are is that it makes chords that take all 6 strings easier to play. When I play bass (4 string), I'm never ever playing chords that take all the strings, and that would be even more true as the number of bass strings increased. So if I ever decided I needed a 6 string bass, I would tune it 4ths. YMMV.
 
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#26
All tunings are a compromise between range, comfort and ease of navigation of the fretboard. I think tuning in fourths provides the best balance for bass guitar and that’s why it has become the standard. Tuning in fifths? Too much shifting. In major thirds? That makes the octave of any note on the A (or Ab) string hard too reach, and fifths are less comfortable too. Different intervals for different strings? That makes transposing harder.

Each of these options can work for certain songs and/or certain people (drop D certainly gets used a lot), but as a general purpose tuning for most people, I think it’s hard to beat all fourths.
 
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#27
Most stringed orchestra instruments (which predate the electric bass) are tuned in fifths. Yet double bass is tuned in fourths. I believe that is to reduce arm motion to help make the instrument more playable.

Guitars are tuned in fourths (mostly). Probably has to do with being able to play chords?

So, along comes the bass guitar. It is only natural that the tuning would derive from the guitar and/or the double bass, both of which are fourths.

Are fifths better? It does not matter. Fourths are such a standard that any benefits of tuning in fifths would be more than offset by the challenges of being the only one not conforming.
 
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#29
not tuning EADG would F me up big time, after 3 decades of learning.
I'm at a point where often don't have to think about what note is where and can focus on music.
It would suck to go back to worrying about which fret/string combo is which

OP's idea is basically the b string of a guitar, so it has been proven out on that instrument.
 
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#33
z14giv1 said:
Hi all,
Pretty new here. I've been playing bass for 1 year and a half. I mostly wasted decades going at the guitar in all the possible ways… or close.

I like bass in many ways, it finally allowed me to set a proper foundation to my musical adventure.
So far, I own only one bass, tuned standard. I wonder about buying a 5th strings but it is mostly gas as I don't really need one to play the pop/rock I try to cover.
I tuned my guitar in all-4th for a while, even remove a string. So I'm familiar with all-4th tuning on more than 4 strings.

At this point my G string sees really few action. Actually a lot of frets are not seeing much action at all.
My experience at this point, out of the +/-25 songs I know, is that the G string is hardly use. It is also my opinion that the G string sounds, if not bad, different from the others three strings which can be nice. More often than not I prefer to shift a lick down the neck than to involve the G string.

My limited experience that most of the groove are played on the E A and D, actually a hypothetical low B string is more likely to get involved than the G string. From there I would assert that whenever the G string is involved, it is mostly for melody playing.
I would say that the same is true for a lot of advanced players, often jazz players. A significant part of the range of the instrument is dedicated to melody and chord playing.

In that context, which can be discuss obviously, I think all-4th tuning are not the best solution to the challenge musicians face. Tom Quayle gave an interesting interview on the matter, and actually stated he regrets to have chosen that path. There are centuries of researches and experiences behind the many different tunings used on the many existing chordophones in existence. Latin America is a treasure on that matter.
From what I gathered, quiet a while ago, the «bass» used 3 strings tuned GDA. Germans proposed the still in used EADG that made playing some parts easier but was less resonant than all-5th (that debate remains after centuries as people still advocate for all-5th tuning if not for the extra range but for the resonance).
When that standard was set, the usage of the instrument was quiet different from where modern players, backed by modern technologies, have pushed the instrument.

I do not intend to try to convince people that already know their ways around the instrument to change theirs ways. The title I chose was on purpose on the provocative side but the point remains : is an all-4th tuning the best solution for modern bass players which playing consist on holding a groove and for the advanced/gifted more «melodic» playing (which resolve on playing chords and arpeggios).

I toyed with a all-5th tuning derivative and I was not happy with it. I decide to try something as when I try to play melodically there are things that bother me with all-4th especially on the 3 highest strings. I especially dislike the root position of many simple triads whether if I intend to play them as a chord or an arpeggio.
I decide to detune my G string to F# and it solved many issue for me. The intervalle of a major third is common on many tunings I tried which includes std guitar tuning and it makes a lot of things more practical.
I wonder about making that change permanent. First I like how the «g» string sounds better than in std tuning (nb 105-45). Then, I have not encountered issues playing the songs I already know. More often than not, I actually the fingering more «natural». I've no difficulty hitting octave and actually it is more easy for me to land a power chord (1 5 1) with the offset introduced by the major 3rd. The bonus is chords and noodling, it feels like an almost different instruments which it is not (I wish the instrument just got better and me too as we are at it XO ).

Back to my concern with range. It is a minimal loss of range compared to std tuning, you could not loose less actually (a semitone). For an «improviser» or composer, aka somebody not concerned about how such a change could affect the songs it covers, a modern instrument, with 24 fret, tuned D G C E cover the same range as 21 fret instrument in drop D, actually exceed the range of such an instrument tuned std, lot of chording possibility in the high range. I guess EADF# is fine but outside of cover I assume most bassists would go with the extra low notes.

If I pushed to 5 strings. BEADF# sounds like the logical choice. The type of things played on bass and ergonomics make that you want lots of strings tuned in 4th. I tried to tuned DGBE, it doesn't fit with the instrument usage. I would think the same of ADGBE: weird compared to ADGCE. It is not a guitar, usage are different but my point is that it is not the major 3rd alone that makes the guitar what it is, neither the all-4th tuning that makes the bass.

Down the line, for 6 strings, assessing my experience with all-4th tuning on guitar, BEADGC seems like a really «weird» choice, with no disrespect to the famous players that use that tuning.
They will noodle a lot, in the highs, play chords, etc hence the high C but too me going for a high C for the sake of symmetry, is kind of ignoring other symmetries as having the same note on the outer strings of the instrument (no a known string) but also from your D string how you find the same note two frets up and down on the G and high C (if you tune in B).
I'm not sure I would want to use a guitar like tuning (BEADF#B) as I always tried to stir away from that tuning.
6 strings is troublesome though, say you tuned EADF#, moved to BEADF#, and finally go all the way to six… you end up with a guitar like tuning. It is likely a bassist, would favor BEADGB which implies learning a new string (G). Anyway I won't move to 6 strings, I'm iffy about 5 and for most bassist, the point is moot. If there is a discussion it is about a high C or a high B (I would obviously advocate for the later).

I agree in advance to statement such as to each his own (ways) though I wish people will consider what I wrote it says and not for «he played guitar, etc» (*) or reinventing the wheel. Etc.
I'm not sure so much though was put into deciding the bass tuning, others strings instruments were tuned in fifth, scale length was an issue : easy answer all-4th. Good enough, sure used to this day. Now as I stated the usage case were quite different from modern (mostly electric) bass playing.

What are your view on the matter ? I don't want to be an oddlier for the sake of it but I really wonder if «the science has really settled» on the matter. EADF# is amenable to most usage, can be «dropped», may allow to cover most of the existing repertoire but allows for more ergonomic chording and fingering up and down the neck.


* on the matter of guitar, I hardly touch it anymore, and thanks to a members here, I considered a luth like tuning (EADF#BE) and I'm happy I did. Feels fresh. I like the vibe better. There more symmetry in it (2 groups of 3 strings tuned in fourth), and I like the voicing I get a lot.
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I need all fourths tuning because bass is a logical and pattern based instrument for me. I tune to DGCF exclusively after being in standard for over a decade. It’s not that far off from standard tuning, but it’s a lot more useful if you don’t want the open high G. I would also tune a 5 string ADGCF.

You can also try BEAD tuning if you prefer standard tuning without the G.
 
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#35
FullumMusic said:
Tuning a bass guitar to perfect 4ths isn't necessarily highly rated, or rated at all. It's not even a rule of music. It's just a tuning convention. Different stringed instruments use different tuning conventions. Cello generally tunes to 5ths.
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The bass guitar tuning in fourths is because that’s how the 4-sting double bass has been tuned for a few hundred years. The fact that it's exactly one octave below the four bottom strings on a guitar in normal tuning is accidental. There are some DB players who tune in fifths, like a cello C G D A. You can read discussions about this over on the DB side of TB.

The name “double bass” came from the days when the purpose was to double the cello line one octave down. It wasn’t until the 19th century that writing independent bass parts became common.

This is why you will see orchestral players using a fingerboard extension with the E string, similar to the way Hipshots work on bass guitars. The extension allows setting the open string to C, C#, D, D# or E by flipping levers. The player sets the open string pitch to the lowest note found in the score.

The fifths tuning is a way to avoid using extensions but requires learning new fingerings.

maxresdefault-2045330338.jpeg
 
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#36
I thought this was tuning in fifths which some of us do ( my smaller upright 38.5 scale is tuned that way CGDA - Also my oldest fretless bass is currently on 5ths tuning) There are some guitar players in fusion land that tune their guitars fourths all the way EADGCF. I've done it. If you do 6 string or E-C 5 string, it makes playing guitar easier

Personally I would not do it. I do not see any benefits to Spanish guitar tuning for a 4 string bass.

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#39
brianrost said:
The bass guitar tuning in fourths is because that’s how the 4-sting double bass has been tuned for a few hundred years. The fact that it's exactly one octave below the four bottom strings on a guitar in normal tuning is accidental. There are some DB players who tune in fifths, like a cello C G D A. You can read discussions about this over on the DB side of TB.

The name “double bass” came from the days when the purpose was to double the cello line one octave down. It wasn’t until the 19th century that writing independent bass parts became common.

This is why you will see orchestral players using a fingerboard extension with the E string, similar to the way Hipshots work on bass guitars. The extension allows setting the open string to C, C#, D, D# or E by flipping levers. The player sets the open string pitch to the lowest note found in the score.

The fifths tuning is a way to avoid using extensions but requires learning new fingerings.

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Right... what you're describing sounds to me like tuning conventions developed under certain musical contexts, which is what i'm saying. There are reasons for these conventions including everything you described. But that doesn't make it any more correct or less correct, any more overrated or underrated. They're just different tuning conventions developed in Western music for an instrument in certain orchestral contexts, be it tuned to 5ths to double the cello, or 4ths to match the bottom 4 strings of a guitar (by accident or otherwise), or to make certain fingerings easier than others.

With respect to the OP's premise of tuning to perfect 4ths being "overrated," i'm saying it can't be overrated because nobody is saying it's the best or the right way to do things. It's just how tunings became standardized for Double Bass and then Bass Guitar in the context of Western Music over the past few centuries. But nothing in the convention mandates it be used. If a different tuning works better for someone, they're free to use it. (Although, i'm guessing in the Classical music world, and some other musical genres, you might have to convince the Conductor or Band Leader or person paying you that your unconventional tuning is ok. 🤔 :laugh: But otherwise...)

And most people are just gonna use the conventional perfect 4th tunings for no reason beyond it's the way they learned, without a quality judgement of that one tuning vs any other.
 
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