Are class D amps getting better?

[seamonkey]

Tone comes from the pre but will not be reproduced faithfully if the power section is not up to par

That's not a class-d problem. It happens with any amp. It's an edge case that can be solved with a bigger amp, or better speakers.
DI out from the Pre to FOH is also another good option, as well as running come Mics.

I don't see many Low power amps that are also class-d. Years ago 300w was massive, now it's a simple minimum in book size amps.

 

[Tom Magri]

Last time I tried out s class D amp it was an Aguilar Hammerhead 350. Not entirely bad, but a bit veiled. Veiled enough so that when I played rapid scales figures & missed notes is wasn't too noticable, & maybe if I kept it it would have worked to my advantage.

Ultimately I didn't keep the Aguilar because it was overpriced (frankly in terms of dollar to watts ratio) & sonically it didn't hold a candle to my Hartke LH-500. BTW, the Hartke is 3 1/2 years old, is in the Samson facility getting fixed for the umpteenthgth time. Thst unit is inherently unreliable & I will never get another Hsrtke-even though it sounds good. Time to get another amp. (My "backup" amp is an Ampeg B2RE, not good in sound, but reliable.)

3 years ago when I tried out thst Aguilar, the general consensus about class D amps was their portability was their redeeming feature, not their sound. Are they getting better? My requirements are a decent watt/dollar ratio, a sound thst approaches that of its non-class D conterparts, and a bass control whose EQ shelving puts the bass where it is needed, & doesn't make the lower midrange boomy when turned up. (Shouldn't have to use external equing.)

Fender is out of the question because of it's lousy customer service. Ampeg portaflexes are reputed as unreliable & bland sonically. Any suggestions, or should I stick with regular amps & simply consign myself to making thst one extra trip to my car when setting up?

Mm

 

[Tom Magri]

Mm

I have been very pleased with my Markbass 121 combo amp. I use it with and without a 12in markbass extension cabinet for about 3 years now any many gigs. Light, reliable and a small stage footprint. It replaced my GK 1001rb 2x10 combo amp which sounded great but was apparently filled with rebar and cement at the factory.

 

[bassmcmatty]

Class D amps aren't getting better, they're among the best amps made.

I would ask you to look at the following (or better yet, listen to the following):

1. Bergantino B|Amp
2. Reiner Studio 1200
3. The new Darkglass

I have heard the first two live (in fact I hear the first one live every day), and I have listened to the latter online and am judging from what I've heard.

I don't what to tell you if someone doesn't recognize these amps as the full equals or superiors in comparison with amps with other topologies.

I'm not comparing weight, features or anything else. With respect to tone, these amps are first drawer. If you're seriously looking at the best amps currently made, you have to audition these.

Not even mentioning the Magellan, which I've heard good things about but haven't had the opportunity to play through or listen to yet.

 

[bassmcmatty]

Class D amps aren't getting better, they're among the best amps made.

I would ask you to look at the following (or better yet, listen to the following):

1. Bergantino B|Amp
2. Reiner Studio 1200
3. The new Darkglass

I have heard the first two live (in fact I hear the first one live every day), and I have listened to the latter online and am judging from what I've heard.

I don't what to tell you if someone doesn't recognize these amps as the full equals or superiors in comparison with amps with other topologies.

I'm not comparing weight, features or anything else. With respect to tone, these amps are first drawer. If you're seriously looking at the best amps currently made, you have to audition these.

Not even mentioning the Magellan, which I've heard good things about but haven't had the opportunity to play through or listen to yet.

I've been checking out the Bergantino B amp on the web and I'm quite interested.
I'm presently using the TC RH750 with (3) TC 2x10 cabs and it still serving me well.

How does the Bergantino compare to the TC amp?

The weight factor for the TC cabinets was a big selling point for me. Unfortunately I depend of the help of my band mates to load and unload my rig and fortunately they don't complain because the stuff is light weight.

Would the Bergantino B amp perform well running through the TC cabinets?
I know the B amp has the voicings for their cabs stored in the memory and I would love to swap the entire rig but 100lbs for the 6x10 cabinet is why I gt away from the Ampeg stuff after my need for assistance loading gear came about.

 

[Walking]

I have a Carvin 500 watt class D bass amp. I am pretty happy with it. I haven't done a lot, but I did some performing in church. My impression is it has a bit of a growl to it, I thought that may be Carvin catering to the tastes of the day.

Class D technology has been around for a number of years. Crown had a monster pa amp that used class D (the K series). Thing about those amps and the class D , once they got above 10-15k there was a lot of phase shift--whether it was an audible issue I can't say, but in any case it was a high-fidelity full range amp.

I did a lot of church playing in past years, and my own personal taste was to put out those low notes loud and undistorted, playing lots of whole notes to keep a solid root under the rest of the group. The best rig I had for that was a phoenix audio one channel mic pre (using the di input) going into an extremely heavy rack mount PA head in mono mode into a carvin 18 inch). Loud and clean for miles. Now that is a bit much investment for what I was doing and you can imagine how much I liked humping that pa amp around. Well, I quit the gig and sold the gear.

Given that as a frame of reference, the carvin does the job for me and it weighs no more than a hard cover book. So, my take on the original question is that class D is a fully developed technology --even for full range PA where distortion is going to be noticed more than bass. If a given amp doesn't deliver the goods, we can be reminded that we know anything can be implemented to a price point, and a given pre-amp can be voiced as the vendor likes, or made cheaply with unavoidable bad sound.

But knowing a bit about electronics, the use of high frequencies to convey power through tiny transformers in class D eliminates one of the limitations of the transformer approach--the lower the note, the more iron it takes to convey the power. Also bear in mind, a similar technology, the switching power supply, eliminates another transformer and has the benefit of economies of scale due to the millions of PCs sold.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

I've been checking out the Bergantino B amp on the web and I'm quite interested.
I'm presently using the TC RH750 with (3) TC 2x10 cabs and it still serving me well.

How does the Bergantino compare to the TC amp?

The weight factor for the TC cabinets was a big selling point for me. Unfortunately I depend of the help of my band mates to load and unload my rig and fortunately they don't complain because the stuff is light weight.

Would the Bergantino B amp perform well running through the TC cabinets?
I know the B amp has the voicings for their cabs stored in the memory and I would love to swap the entire rig but 100lbs for the 6x10 cabinet is why I gt away from the Ampeg stuff after my need for assistance loading gear came about.

Berg compared to TC?

Really?

No comparison. Berg is a world away in quality and tone. Not my thing, mind you (the whole software controlled preamp and UI doesn't do it for me) but it sounds great. TC gear is... meh.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

I have a Carvin 500 watt class D bass amp. I am pretty happy with it. I haven't done a lot, but I did some performing in church. My impression is it has a bit of a growl to it, I thought that may be Carvin catering to the tastes of the day.

Class D technology has been around for a number of years. Crown had a monster pa amp that used class D (the K series). Thing about those amps and the class D , once they got above 10-15k there was a lot of phase shift--whether it was an audible issue I can't say, but in any case it was a high-fidelity full range amp.

I did a lot of church playing in past years, and my own personal taste was to put out those low notes loud and undistorted, playing lots of whole notes to keep a solid root under the rest of the group. The best rig I had for that was a phoenix audio one channel mic pre (using the di input) going into an extremely heavy rack mount PA head in mono mode into a carvin 18 inch). Loud and clean for miles. Now that is a bit much investment for what I was doing and you can imagine how much I liked humping that pa amp around. Well, I quit the gig and sold the gear.

Given that as a frame of reference, the carvin does the job for me and it weighs no more than a hard cover book. So, my take on the original question is that class D is a fully developed technology --even for full range PA where distortion is going to be noticed more than bass. If a given amp doesn't deliver the goods, we can be reminded that we know anything can be implemented to a price point, and a given pre-amp can be voiced as the vendor likes, or made cheaply with unavoidable bad sound.

But knowing a bit about electronics, the use of high frequencies to convey power through tiny transformers in class D eliminates one of the limitations of the transformer approach--the lower the note, the more iron it takes to convey the power. Also bear in mind, a similar technology, the switching power supply, eliminates another transformer and has the benefit of economies of scale due to the millions of PCs sold.

You have a BX500, right? It's an okay but... characterless amp (I had one briefly). I moved on.

In fact, I did the whole "Class D conversion" about 2 years ago. I had been running an Ashdown ABM500 for many years, but decided to cut some weight. Here are the amps I tried with my impressions.

GK MB200: Nice practice amp but gutless. Kept as a backup for a while then sold it.
Genz Benz Shuttle 6.2: Nice amp, very crisp, but seemed to lack low-end "oomph".
Aguilar Tonehammer 500: Again, nice amp - but "wooly" - better low end than the GB but compressed highs. Felt VERY Tube. Not my thing (sold it a rocker buddy who LOVES it)
Carvin BX500: Does the job but had no character, nothing that struck me as interesting.
Tecamp Puma 500: Does it all. Very crisp but can be dialed into have a thicker sound. This is my current amp.

 

[Walking]

You have a BX500, right? It's an okay but... characterless amp (I had one briefly). I moved on...

Its easy to imagine you, and most of the folks here have done thousands of stage hours compared to me, so I don't claim to be an expert in these matters. My conception of myself as a bassist is that the notes are the star, the beauty of the root movement, and so forth--perhaps featuring the limitations of my skills and the sort of music I like. So, I feel like the beauty of the notes and chord movement in combination with the rest of the band is what I get off on. No doubt different folks have different concepts of their bass playing, not claiming mine is superior, its just mine. I do have a fairly refined (specific) idea of what I think good guitar tone is, so maybe I just haven't played enough bass to form preference.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

Its easy to imagine you, and most of the folks here have done thousands of stage hours compared to me, so I don't claim to be an expert in these matters. My conception of myself as a bassist is that the notes are the star, the beauty of the root movement, and so forth--perhaps featuring the limitations of my skills and the sort of music I like. So, I feel like the beauty of the notes and chord movement in combination with the rest of the band is what I get off on. No doubt different folks have different concepts of their bass playing, not claiming mine is superior, its just mine. I do have a fairly refined (specific) idea of what I think good guitar tone is, so maybe I just haven't played enough bass to form preference.

My point is that you have better options for the same price.

 

[agedhorse]

Also bear in mind, a similar technology, the switching power supply, eliminates another transformer and has the benefit of economies of scale due to the millions of PCs sold.

Not true, SMPS do have transformers and are smaller because they operate at higher frequency.

 

[Josh Kneisel]

I actually prefer Class D amps... Solid State is well... solid...

 

[Walking]

My point is that you have better options for the same price.

That's cool. If I was to buy a new one, your list would be my first stop. Right now, I am not gigging with the electric bass, and nothing on the horizon, so I am just gonna sit tight on it for now.

My son got a fiddle and is playing bluegrass, so I got a stand up bass and am working on that these days.

 

[Walking]

I actually prefer Class D amps... Solid State is well... solid...

In my mind, for what it worth, for guitar, that tube sound just can't be beat. Bass requires so much more power that large tube rigs are heavy and vulnerable to damage. I always felt bass could go solid state because it is easy to put out a clean note and a marshally sort of tube sound doesn't make sense for bass (at least to me). I like to think about bass as being something people only hear when it stops (ideally being totally integrated with the drums), and combined with drums it gives people an irresistible urge to get up and dance. I probably have the highest ratio of philosophy to gigging of any bass player anywhere.

 

[kjones]

I've been checking out the Bergantino B amp on the web and I'm quite interested.
I'm presently using the TC RH750 with (3) TC 2x10 cabs and it still serving me well.

How does the Bergantino compare to the TC amp?

The weight factor for the TC cabinets was a big selling point for me. Unfortunately I depend of the help of my band mates to load and unload my rig and fortunately they don't complain because the stuff is light weight.

Would the Bergantino B amp perform well running through the TC cabinets?
I know the B amp has the voicings for their cabs stored in the memory and I would love to swap the entire rig but 100lbs for the 6x10 cabinet is why I gt away from the Ampeg stuff after my need for assistance loading gear came about.

I think you'd find the B|Amp works really well with a whole range of cabinets. No idea where you live, but you're welcome to meet me somewhere and try out your cab with my amp if you're in the area.

The default sound of the amp is the sound of your bass, made loud. The EQ is very flexible if you're looking for a particular tone. I often play mine through a non-Bergie cabinet, and it works great.

 

[Walking]

Not true, SMPS do have transformers and are smaller because they operate at higher frequency.

I was sloppy in my writing, not imaging someone with your expertise. Yup, the high frequencies allow a tiny transformer, compared to 60 cycles, or what have you. I have seen the ones in PC power supplies, as well as the one in my Carvin class d head. I was brought up with tube technology and its hard for me to imagine that 500 watts can pass thru that transformer without heating it up and smoking it.

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Just look at that little fella in this pc power supply--hiding between the heat sinks. Could be a 650 watt power supply passing thru that transformer. Much as I know about electronics, at some level its still pure magic to me.

 

[Follydude]

Well, idk about new. But the shuttlemax series can be had within the range of $700 and they are incredible amps.

You can get a brand new Genzler Magellan 800 for less than that.

 

[agedhorse]

I was sloppy in my writing, not imaging someone with your expertise. Yup, the high frequencies allow a tiny transformer, compared to 60 cycles, or what have you. I have seen the ones in PC power supplies, as well as the one in my Carvin class d head. I was brought up with tube technology and its hard for me to imagine that 500 watts can pass thru that transformer without heating it up and smoking it.

It's not hard to imagine if you understand the math. One big advantage of smaller size is less copper required per turn so the compactness contributes to the increased performance. Tube technology has nothing to do with SMPS electro-magnetics, though the effects can be seen on output transformer design, if (for identical core material) you raise the low frequency limit of the transformer bandwidth, the core cros-sectional area gets smaller and the transformer shrinks for identical performance (other than LF bandwidth)

 

[Bunk McNulty]

For many years I lugged around a MusicMan HD150. Good sound, but kinda like hauling around the alternator from an old Buick. Now I have a Genz-Benz 900 Streamliner. I set everything at 12 o'clock, and I get a great sound. I cannot imagine ever running through something with 4 6J6s again. I've also played through the Magellan, and if I ever need a new amp, that is what I'll be looking at. Far beyond anything I'm ever likely to need, and just a lovely, rich tone.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I think class D amps are getting better. Initial problem was not the sound but the way the power supply worked. Didn't seem to have any headroom and when it clipped, that clipping sounded pretty bad. Some folks got around this by downrating the power of the ICE 500-watt power unit that was used in a lot if not most Class D amps to 300-watts or so. That really gave the musician a more reasonable expectation of performance but is really a workaround and doesn't deal with the real problem of not getting that +3db on peaks. Newer class D seem to have addressed that.

I'd suggest you look at a couple of Class D amps from DNA (David Nordschow Amplification). He uses a newly patented design with one cycle control loop technology that gets that +3db headroom back. He offers a monster 1350-watt amp and a more compact 800-watt amp called the DNA1350 and DNA800 respectively.

Here's front and back of the DNA800, street price ~$750, weight 4.8-lbs.

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The 1350 offers more power along with more options including a flexible compressor, and side chain effects. So you can run regular effects in and out as normal (pre-EQ) and then stick other effects in the side chain and use the side chain control to mix them in (basically wet/dry) to blend as desired.

Here's the DNA 1350 - street price $1495, weight 7-lbs.