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Are Class D amps really 5 times less powerful than A/B?

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#341
@agedhorse referenced the Fender Tone Master which I wasn't familiar with so I looked it up.

Of course he's right he obviously designs these things and has for a long time it seems. For some big companies too.
I think the confusion lies in how the manufacturer advertise/talk about/describe their products.

I found the following at Sweetwater in the description.

They say "Fender digital amplification."

"The Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb — here in textured Blonde vinyl with an Oxblood grille — is a stunning facsimile of a '60s-era all-tube Deluxe, built using the latest in Fender digital amplification and loaded with an ultralight Celestion neodymium-magnet speaker for a distinct rock 'n' roll voicing. Faithful modeling of the classic tube architecture gives the Tone Master all the headroom, output, and reactivity of the original at a massive weight savings."

I'm not disagreeing with @agedhorse he lays it all out pretty clearly. Just thought this was interesting.
 
#344
Texican said:
Yeah but was the fruit digital?
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upload_2022-5-18_20-28-17.jpeg
 
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#345
I can't be bothered to dig through 18 pages of this thread, but did that guy ever come back that got his feelings hurt and said that it was better here 15 years ago? He thought he was being picked on, but he was mistaken, and I fear he may end up digital in the literal sense.
 
#347
Michael Favata said:
@agedhorse referenced the Fender Tone Master which I wasn't familiar with so I looked it up.

Of course he's right he obviously designs these things and has for a long time it seems. For some big companies too.
I think the confusion lies in how the manufacturer advertise/talk about/describe their products.

I found the following at Sweetwater in the description.

They say "Fender digital amplification."

"The Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb — here in textured Blonde vinyl with an Oxblood grille — is a stunning facsimile of a '60s-era all-tube Deluxe, built using the latest in Fender digital amplification and loaded with an ultralight Celestion neodymium-magnet speaker for a distinct rock 'n' roll voicing. Faithful modeling of the classic tube architecture gives the Tone Master all the headroom, output, and reactivity of the original at a massive weight savings."

I'm not disagreeing with @agedhorse he lays it all out pretty clearly. Just thought this was interesting.
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In the case of the Tone Masters, they are fully digital preamps (other than the input and output jack analog signal conditioning) with the signal entering an input scaling amp, A/D converter, DSP, D/A converter and into the analog class D power amp.

This is a different topology than we have been discussing, I did mention the Bergantino B:Amp earlier as an example of a digital (DSP) based amp in the bass world.
 
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#350
Plastalmonus said:
It seems he is talking more about the overdriven/saturation aspects of Class AB vs Class D where he feels that Class D needs higher headroom as the overdriven aspects aren't as musical.

It is the American guy who says you need 5 times the power.

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Very few things on Earth more entertaining to me than a snake oil salesperson going full bore on a grift. Especially how they draw (suck in) conspirators. Priceless.
 
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#352
seamonkey said:
Amp makers who advertise "Class-D" shouldn't bother.
There are many variants on Class-D they are missing out on what makes their own special.

Nobody can hear class anyhow. Skip the "Class-D" and just marketing: "Light and Cool as a Cloud", "Incomparable Loudness", "Innovation exceeds Class"
And build them like car engines where if you open them up you see shrouds molded plastic and no real parts.
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Then what would people argue about?:)
It's interesting that the people that argue most vehemently generally have the least understanding of what they are arguing.
 
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#353
Well here goes my hat into the ring.I bought a Katana 210 sight unseen from Sweetwater because of what I read about it being class ab and having a different tone/sound from the typical class d combo..I just got done using a Mesa Bass 400+ for more than 20 years and as Im well into my 60s I thought I would downsize a bit and simplify my setup.After playing tube bass amps for well over 40 years the Katana 210 is the 1st small combo amp I have found that comes closest to that tube vibe/tone that I like.As for the claim that class ab watts are equal to class d watts 4 to 5 times as much I can only say it kinda sounds something that way to me but thats my ear,let your own ears be the judge.The Katana 210s 160 ab watts are a lot louder than you think they would be and will stand toe to toe with most 210 combos I can think of say 350 to 500 watts class d.As for you those of you doubting the engineering skills/prowess of Roland/Boss corporation.They could have chosen a variety of brown bag class d modules from various manufacturers that had more power and saved weight,were cheaper,made them more $ but they didnt.They chose tone first and felt the class ab output gave them that.Even their Katana and Nextone guitar amps are class ab.Can anyone on this site tell me of any amp companies out there that claim their amp has that great class d sound.There are a lot of them though striving to get their class d amps to sound more tube/class ab like though.The Mesa WD 800 and TT800 are a few that come to mind.
 
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#355
BruceG63 said:
Well here goes my hat into the ring.I bought a Katana 210 sight unseen from Sweetwater because of what I read about it being class ab and having a different tone/sound from the typical class d combo..I just got done using a Mesa Bass 400+ for more than 20 years and as Im well into my 60s I thought I would downsize a bit and simplify my setup.After playing tube bass amps for well over 40 years the Katana 210 is the 1st small combo amp I have found that comes closest to that tube vibe/tone that I like.As for the claim that class ab watts are equal to class d watts 4 to 5 times as much I can only say it kinda sounds something that way to me but thats my ear,let your own ears be the judge.The Katana 210s 160 ab watts are a lot louder than you think they would be and will stand toe to toe with most 210 combos I can think of say 350 to 500 watts class d.As for you those of you doubting the engineering skills/prowess of Roland/Boss corporation.They could have chosen a variety of brown bag class d modules from various manufacturers that had more power and saved weight,were cheaper,made them more $ but they didnt.They chose tone first and felt the class ab output gave them that.Even their Katana and Nextone guitar amps are class ab.Can anyone on this site tell me of any amp companies out there that claim their amp has that great class d sound.There are a lot of them though striving to get their class d amps to sound more tube/class ab like though.The Mesa WD 800 and TT800 are a few that come to mind.
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Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Ive played many of the combo bass amps, owned several and the Katana is the best sounding one aside from the Orange Crush IMO. I shouldn't really be surprised as the Katana guitar amps are the best non tube combo guitar amps Ive played IMO.
 
#356
mbell75 said:
Good points but I just find it a bit odd that although I love Ampeg and Fender bass tones, I dont like the sound of their Class D amps at all. Meanwhile, I really like the Boss and Orange tones which are not Class D.

I agree about the Fender Tone Master amps. They are fantastic and sound REALLY close to the tube amps. That is a great example of Class D done right IMO.
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Have you tried the Fender Bassman 500/800?
 
#357
mbell75 said:
Ok, well lets put it this way. The Rumble sounds nothing like the classic Fender bass tone I think of, which is a BF Bassman. The Rocket Bass sounds nothing like the classic Ampeg tone I think of, which is an old school SVT. Actually, whatever default preset Boss has dialed into the last custom setting on the Katana amps sounds more like an old school Ampeg tone than Ive heard from actual Ampeg combo amps in decades. Not surprising though, Ampeg hasn't sounded like Ampeg since before St. Louis took over in the mid 80s and the amps under LOUD were awful. They should have just retired the name to be honest. But thats another story for another day.
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Not my experience, I own a B-15 N(C) from 1964 and it sounds incredible. I've had lots of experience playing through that amplifier and When I tried out a PF 350 into their early 1x15 Cabinet IME it sounded very similar to my B-15 nice tone, and way more volume. I've also played through the early Ampeg "Rocket" 50 and 100 bass amps that "SLM" built in their Arkansas facility for the "Diamond Jubilee". Those amps are very close to the tone my B-15N(C) and more powerful. Just my take, everyone is entitled to an opinion. I wonder if I might ask what model of the B-15 are you playing through. SVT's and B-15's to my ears sound very different from one another.
 
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