Are Class D amps really 5 times less powerful than A/B?

[DJ Bebop]

Ok. So if a watt is a watt and 100 watt Class D is the same power rating as 100 watt tube, A/B power section, why isn't every professional bassist gigging with 100 watt Class D amps? Smaller, lighter, cheaper etc…..we all know why. Because a 100 watt Class D amp is basically nothing more than a practice amp while a 100 watt tube, A/B amp can be gigged on large stages. The two are not comparable and Class D power ratings are misleading, sorry.

People play though what they like, it doesn't mean it's the best for everybody.

What are your citations for prove?

Have you played the 100 watt tube amp and the 100 watt class D through the same cabinet?

Have you done a bench test between the two cited amps?

Have you ever played through those amps you cited?


Have you even played through this new Boss Katana bass amps you say are better?

 

[/\/\3phist0]

What are your citations for prove?
Have you played the tube amp and the class D through the same cabinet?

Have you done a bench test between the two cited amps?

Have you even played through the new Boss Katana bass amps?

I've played with the katana, nice kit nice price. Didn't buy it.

** addendum and important to note.
Most of the large sound reinforcement at concert venues use .....
Wait for it....

Class D power.

So the sound of your tube amp will reach the audience via class D... and lots of post processing, that is if it is even part of the signal chain at ALL.

Not to mention, that most of the large scale shows----- I've played many, and know many others who have played more... they don't even utilize your amp.
Your bass signal goes into a direct box to the FOH board.

Reality check chapter one complete.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Wow so defensive.
Because the "pro" bassists have endorsement deals, and road crews .
In most circumstances, at the end of the day, in the audience little to none of what reaches your ears has anything to do with the stage prop visuals.
Geddy's washing machines sounded better that the chicken rotisserie rig by all accounts.
Slayer's massive wall of Marshall's were just props.
As were Eddie Van Halen's and Yngwie Malmstein's.

Seriously. Science.
Put an SVT (owned 3) Mesa 400 (owned 2)
Mesa Titan (owned and loved) driving a car subwoofer cabinet and it will sound poopiee.
Its all a system, and the largest portion of what you hear is paper cones moving air.

Currently very happy with my Mesa WD800 and Audio Kinesis Thunderchild 115.

If you are dead set that 50+ year old technology is superior to all the engineering efforts since, why argue the point?

Go get your tunes on. I have no opposition.
Just your original premise is ignorant of facts, science, mass opinion. I've no dog in the race. I like tube Amps too (see my short list near the start of this post)

You do you, stop trying to convince the learned that you are the one with the only correct answer.

Plus the fact maybe that's a tone goal, straning a 100 watt tube amp for bass is a desired goal for some. Some guitarist will play through an 18 watt amp instead of a 100 watt one because they like their tone better.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Plus the fact maybe that's a tone goal, straning a 100 watt tube amp for bass is a desired goal for some. Some guitarist will play through an 18 watt amp instead of a 100 watt one because they like their tone better.

I play with guys who run Princeton and one a vintage Vibrochamp.

For most applications currently 50 is more than what's needed.
My current guitarist runs a customized Plush 35 watt into a ginormous 2x12 1/2 open back cab.

 

[Plastalmonus]

Ok. So if a watt is a watt and 100 watt Class D is the same power rating as 100 watt tube, A/B power section, why isn't every professional bassist gigging with 100 watt Class D amps? Smaller, lighter, cheaper etc…..we all know why. Because a 100 watt Class D amp is basically nothing more than a practice amp while a 100 watt tube, A/B amp can be gigged on large stages. The two are not comparable and Class D power ratings are misleading, sorry.

Isiah Radke from the band Radkey, who previously toured with Foo Fighters and is currently touring with The Offspring, plays through a Trace Elliot ELF 200w Class D head and 2 x 2x8 cabs and manages to play stadiums quite well.

 

[Guitalia]

Roland's budget amp division issues new low-wattage class A/B amps.

Roland's marketing department is tasked with the job of selling the new amps against everyone else's higher-powered class D amps.

Solution: have the prez of Boss make straight-faced outrageous claims about how much more powerful class A/B amps are than class D amps, in the face of ample evidence to the contrary.

Hey, at least a few people who know little to nothing about electronics will fall for it - and will dig in deeper and deeper as professional amp designers repeatedly explain why those claims are bogus as presented.

This thread reminds me of the LowEndLobster thread where he reported that the pickups in the Junior Jet II bass that Gretsch has been marketing for years as humbucking have actually been single coils all along. The hate from Gretsch apologists here and, especially, in the GretschTalk forum website had to be read to be believed. Then Gretsch quietly changed the descriptions on their website, tacitly admitting that the pickups are indeed single coils.

Here's hoping that the Boss president is shamed into correcting his claims re A/B versus D.

 

[bdplaid]

Class D aside, the thing I could not understand is the watt comparison between tube and solid state. I agree that 100 watts from a tube power section sound louder than 100 watts from a solid state power section. Class D has no involvement. This comparison holds true regardless of solid state amplifier class. I have an old Yamaha P2100 that sounds wonderful but is fully solid state, 100 watts, and not very loud. I suspect it is Class AB. Class D has nothing to do with it.

The thing about Class D is that is makes a lot of power without generating a lot of heat.

So in my mind, the OP's gripe is misidentified, being with solid state, not class D.

 

[deff]

Isiah Radke from the band Radkey, who previously toured with Foo Fighters and is currently touring with The Offspring, plays through a Trace Elliot ELF 200w Class D head and 2 x 2x8 cabs and manages to play stadiums quite well.

Uhm, yeah Radkey is great but this isn't even remotely real world. Anything with the FF is going to have enormous PA support. All Isiah has to do is get his amp loud enough to be heard by a microphone. The rest is monitors and PA. I don't remember what they used on the last club tour, but I don't think it was an elf into 2 2X8 speaks..

This also has zero to do with Class D/Tube/SS watts and that rabbit hole.

 

[CryingBass]

I have not seen "dampening factor" mentioned before in these threads.

I know just enough to make @agedhorse punch me in the mouth about this, but with all of the opinions about what folks are "hearing" with tube-amp vs. non-tube experiences, could any of that have to do with the symbiotic relationship between a good amp and the speakers in a cab and the way that proper dampening performance can make speakers produce more "good" bass sound vs. more "mud" bass sound? ( extrusion control, less "flapping", etc. )

( expected answer from the great one - from experience: no )

 

[DJ Bebop]

Maybe it's more about how the preamp interacts with the power amp, no matter what the topology is, and what the end desire is or tone goal is. I have plugged in preamps into the power amps section of amps I thought weak and gained more perceived volume.

All things being equal, 100 watts say.
If I push my 100-watt tube amp into distortion but the distortion sounds good to me, it's louder, to my ear. If I push an older class D into distortion and it doesn't sound good to anyone's ear, I'll turn it down, so now it's not as loud as the tube amp.

I say older class D because some of the newer ones and oddly enough, those same amps I'm thinking of, the aged horse had his foot in. And those undesired things about class D have and continue to be addressed by him, of course IMHO.

 

[Jim C]

Hey, you know how a bad cop will get fired, and then just move on to a new department?

Well look what the OP has been up to in a new thread:
View attachment 4694944
At what point do the mods decide that it's harmful to tell young (and often poor) musicians to invest their last handful of pennies into a 60 watt 110 combo for gigging because it has a magic A/B section, and will keep up with any 300 watt class D head and cab. I'm all for free speech and diversity of ideas, but maybe some members need a disclaimer next to their username.

Boss Katana Bass 210 vs Ampeg Micro VR for a bedroom amp. Thoughts?

I'm a member on two highly technical motorcycle forums.
When disinformation or tech info that is incorrect is presented by a new member, they are corrected politely and with respect.
If this continues, they get corrected in a more aggressive manner and not usually by a moderator.
If it continues they get banned.
These are smaller boards with some really smart engineers, fabricators, and riders. Most of the guys are older. We don't take a lot of crap.
Somedays I think folks on TB post a bunch of crap just to create mayhem.
How often do you see these guys post something along the lines of "sorry and thanks for the correction"?

 

[agedhorse]

So that I understand this at the risk of sounding like an idiot for asking: You are saying that a class D amp that's not integrated with other stages cannot receive a PWM digital audio signal and generate an analog audio output? Because that's what I assume but it's not my field so I don't actually know. (And if my assumption is correct I'll edit that section in Wikipedia.)

That's a good question, my supposition (based on the most common topologies) is probably not, but for reasons that may not be clear.

one reason is that there is usually some feedback around the output stage (pre or post LPF) that wouldn't be possible without access to the input of the PWM comparator.

There's also mechanisms that govern the PWM oscillation in some topologies that alter the frequency with the load current.

Downstream of the PWM comparator, there is also drivers with dead-time management that may also include dead-time feedback based on level (or duty cycle).

All these little things contribute to improving performance.

Why has nobody(read: has anybody) ever made a box that provides toggleable 4/8 ohm resistance, and charts how many watts it's receiving?

We could run a single pre-recorded bass signal into each amp to definitively measure amplifier output.

I'm a mechanics guy, not an E&M guy. That stuff made my brain fall out of my ears. But surely we measure wattage and volume levels in 2022. Solve this topic once and for all.

Sure this is available, the most popular one is the Audio Precision system.

Ok. So if a watt is a watt and 100 watt Class D is the same power rating as 100 watt tube, A/B power section, why isn't every professional bassist gigging with 100 watt Class D amps? Smaller, lighter, cheaper etc…..we all know why. Because a 100 watt Class D amp is basically nothing more than a practice amp while a 100 watt tube, A/B amp can be gigged on large stages. The two are not comparable and Class D power ratings are misleading, sorry.

Just relating specifically to the guitar world, There are in fact plenty of 100 watt class D amps out there touring on some of the biggest stages. The Fender Tone Master amps are the most visible example of this, they replace 100 watt tube amp models by the same names with excellent reviews by real players. This is about as comparable as it gets.

I have not seen "dampening factor" mentioned before in these threads.

I know just enough to make @agedhorse punch me in the mouth about this, but with all of the opinions about what folks are "hearing" with tube-amp vs. non-tube experiences, could any of that have to do with the symbiotic relationship between a good amp and the speakers in a cab and the way that proper dampening performance can make speakers produce more "good" bass sound vs. more "mud" bass sound? ( extrusion control, less "flapping", etc. )

( expected answer from the great one - from experience: no )

It certainly can. This, along with amp voicing and textural design choices generally dominate a player's perception of an amp.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I have not seen "dampening factor" mentioned before in these threads.

I know just enough to make @agedhorse punch me in the mouth about this, but with all of the opinions about what folks are "hearing" with tube-amp vs. non-tube experiences, could any of that have to do with the symbiotic relationship between a good amp and the speakers in a cab and the way that proper dampening performance can make speakers produce more "good" bass sound vs. more "mud" bass sound? ( extrusion control, less "flapping", etc. )

( expected answer from the great one - from experience: no )

I can talk from my experience with a WD head.

That damping thing is no joke.

That feature along with the other voodoo agedhorse has baked in that amp gives me what I liked about tube amps. It does make the speaker cabinet interact with the amp as if it was a tube amp (yes, I know it does have a tube in the front end, but that's not the tube sound I'm talking about ) Yet I can change it and it's more solid-state sounding. It also has power tube emulation that appears throughout the line that really gets it into that good tube tone that folks like that was missing from the early class D offerings early in the class D for bass guitar story, imho.

 

[mbell75]

Just relating specifically to the guitar world, There are in fact plenty of 100 watt class D amps out there touring on some of the biggest stages. The Fender Tone Master amps are the most visible example of this, they replace 100 watt tube amp models by the same names with excellent reviews by real players. This is about as comparable as it gets.

Thanks, I get that. Im talking about bass amps here. If its the same thing for bass amps, a watt is a watt and a class D bass amp can do everything a tube, A/B amp can, why arent we seeing professional bassists gigging arenas with Fender Rumble 100 amps? You are really saying that a class D 100 watt Fender Rumble is no different than a 100 watt Ampeg V4-B pushing four 6L6s? If thats the case, why isn't Fender making tiny little 100 watt Class D amps that professional bass players can slip into a tiny bag and call it a day?

 

[bdplaid]

Thanks, I get that. Im talking about bass amps here. If its the same thing for bass amps, a watt is a watt and a class D bass amp can do everything a tube, A/B amp can, why arent we seeing professional bassists gigging arenas with Fender Rumble 100 amps? You are really saying that a class D 100 watt Fender Rumble is no different than a 100 watt Ampeg V4-B pushing four 6L6s?

IMO most arena amps are just there for show. Mark King, for example, is a Markbass endorser. Magically now onstage is a Markbass amp. While he wears in-ears. I don't believe for a second he uses Markbass.

 

[bdplaid]

When we moved from adding machines to computers, I wonder if anyone argued that the electricity was different?

 

[Texican]

Class D amps are not digital, so my BS alert is already tripped.

This was post number two, and I can only hope that in every other reality in the multi-verse, this is where this thread ended.

 

[mbell75]

IMO most arena amps are just there for show. Mark King, for example, is a Markbass endorser. Magically now onstage is a Markbass amp. While he wears in-ears. I don't believe for a second he uses Markbass.

True. Might be a bad analogy. So lets try this. No house system to run thru, its an outdoor show with a loud band. If a watt is a watt and a Class D power section rated at 100 watts is no different from a 100 watt tube, A/B power section pushing 6L6s, you should be able to stack that Rumble 100 with an external 12 inch cab and keep up with an Ampeg V-4B running into a 2x12 cab right? So why pay $3k for the Ampeg rig when you can do the same thing for about $600 with a Rumble setup?

 

[agedhorse]

Thanks, I get that. Im talking about bass amps here. If its the same thing for bass amps, a watt is a watt and a class D bass amp can do everything a tube, A/B amp can, why arent we seeing professional bassists gigging arenas with Fender Rumble 100 amps? You are really saying that a class D 100 watt Fender Rumble is no different than a 100 watt Ampeg V4-B pushing four 6L6s? If thats the case, why isn't Fender making tiny little 100 watt Class D amps that professional bass players can slip into a tiny bag and call it a day?

I don't see many V4-B's either actually.

Amps that get used on tour based on player preferences in addition to an amp being a commonly platform (ie. the SVT) and the type of speaker being used. From memory, I have seen Aguilar have TH-350's and 500's (class D), Fender Bassman 500/800's (class D), SWR SM-400/500/900 (class AB), Walkabout and Carbine 6/9 (class AB), Subway D, D+, WD, TT (class D), etc.

It really comes down to player preferences, the needs of the gig and the look the band is after.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Thanks, I get that. Im talking about bass amps here. If its the same thing for bass amps, a watt is a watt and a class D bass amp can do everything a tube, A/B amp can, why arent we seeing professional bassists gigging arenas with Fender Rumble 100 amps? You are really saying that a class D 100 watt Fender Rumble is no different than a 100 watt Ampeg V4-B pushing four 6L6s? If thats the case, why isn't Fender making tiny little 100 watt Class D amps that professional bass players can slip into a tiny bag and call it a day?

I'll take a shot again.

Because it's about tone, on stage next to me as monitor. I like the sound of a 100 watt tube amp straining away. If it was a 1000 watt tube amp, it wouldn't be the same. Like guitarist preferring an 18 watt tube combo over a Marshall half stack. It's not about what is better, it's about my tone next to me.

The FOH will take my tone to the audience. It's not about my 100-watt tube amp filling the venue. And that has nothing to do with the class of amp other than my tone goals.

If my tone goals are a clean studio sound, I will use whatever gets me there and that's a gig you may not come and see.

And there in lies the conundrum, the people you watch are into tube amps, that is why you see them and not class D amps, on the stage. But they are there, as some have pointed out. They are there in that big PA carrying that 100 tube amp to you. If you are in a big venue.

If you are in the neighborhood bar with speakers on sticks then yes you are hearing that 100-watt bass amp more direct, and that is the player's tone goal.

Plus the 100 watt Rumble you keep bring up may sound bigger if it's mated to the same cabinet you are running that V4-B through and not the combo speaker it comes with.