Are Class D's Disposable?

[agedhorse]

I own a Genz Benz Shuttle 9. Over the past decade, it has gone back to AgedHorse twice, once in 2016 and again in 2019.

Originally purchased new in 2012, the amp has thousands of hours on it, and it still sounds great; it works great.

When it did go back for service, it was things like the tube socket cracked when I dropped the amp, causing some intermittent noise. That is not the amp's fault, of course. Move gear enough times, and sometimes stuff gets dropped or banged.

Definitively speaking about my GB Shuttle 9, it is as far from disposable as one could ever hope any piece of gear to be! So much so that I will keep using it for another decade.

I will add my endorsement, AgedHorse is a freaking great resource, super reasonably priced, has quick turnarounds, and has authoritative and comprehensive knowledge about these amps and how to keep them going...and he has a parts inventory. We are lucky to have him on this forum.

It should be noted that the support of the service program was in fact encouraged by the brand's former owners (both Fender and KMC Music), they recognized the value in "supporting supportable products" and the benefits that it brings to players and the industry as a whole. KMC is where I developed the appreciation for a large company that was run in part by engineers but also by folks who were very well educated in how to run a company for long term success. I was always encouraged to learn more about any subject that may have interest in the future, and that included understanding nuances of business and manufacturing practices, basic R&D, and the development of new/emerging technologies. This reflects the engineering based underpinning of corporate management and the parent company as a whole (Kaman Aircraft/Aerospace/Industrial). It was not uncommon to work with engineers from the other divisions and the cross-pollination of technology and knowledge was appreciated from both sides.

You realize there is this whole class of amps between Class D and tube amps, right?

I own a number of them, only one needed a repair (which cost $100) and it was 20 years old by the time it needed a repair, used all the time. My oldest amp is going on 44 years old and the only thing it ever needed was for me to resolder the leg of a ceramic cap....took about 15 minutes including sliding the amp out of the case it was in.

That amp still worked fine the ceramic was on the power switch which stopped working.

I don't know the failure rate of Class D amps, but it sure seems higher than the older amps still out there and working. The Aged one says he fixes one every day and he does not repair all brands.

In any event mine was so cheap ($208 with tax) I will just throw it away if it breaks.

Analogeezer

Let's be clear here, I am the "factory service center" for all of North America and repair one brand of which there are tens of thousands of amps out there. At least half of these amps have suffered from being dropped or damaged due to an accident/abuse. Some simply have a LOT of hours on them and need general maintenance, and a few have defective parts. All but a few take less than an hour to repair PROPERLY, when you know how to repair them, they are simple to repair. All in all, they are more reliable and less expensive to repair than tube amps and even class AB solid state amps as a whole (by quite a bit).

For a $200 amp, it may be just as cheap to replace, but I am not in the market of $200 amps (obviously).

 

[seamonkey]

Class-d amplifiers are more reliable than ever before.
They are also ROHS - aka recyclable. Like - Apple recycles their cells phones and have recovered $$$ in value from things like gold. Boat loads of old electronics ship overseas to be recycled. Old chips can be bought from the recyclers.

There are plenty of people who know new electronics and can repair stuff down to the component level if it makes economic sense.

For example I've see people pick up IcePower modules for their own use, these include an SMPS to power pre-amps. The users do something dumb and blow out the pre-amp fuse. They de-solder, and solder in a new SMD fuse. Other things just don't go wrong on these modules.

I recently saw someone repair a Mercedes key fob. The thing got smash an leads broke off the main control chip. The chip was separated from the PCB with the leg still on the PCB. They used a dremel to carefully cut back plastic on the top of the chip to expose the metal leg inside it, and then soldered in a jumper to the pcb. Saved hundreds of dollars in buying a new fob.

New world and new talent. Get referrals to find the top talent.

 

[chris_b]

You realize there is this whole class of amps between Class D and tube amps, right?

Of course but the thread is about the reliability of D class amps.

I don't know the failure rate of Class D amps, but it sure seems higher than the older amps still out there and working. The Aged one says he fixes one every day and he does not repair all brands.

I don't believe there are any figures on bass amp reliability, of any class, that would enable anyone to come up with comparative failure rates.

 

[Passinwind]

I don't know the failure rate of Class D amps, but it sure seems higher than the older amps still out there and working.

What do you suppose the apparent failure rate will be for the sample set of current production Class D amps still out there and working 20-30 years later?

 

[GonzoBfiddy]

I repair class D amps every day. Rarely does it have anything to do with the class D section, and the amps I work on are fully repairable for a truly qualified tech.

Well I have an SWR HeadLite that needs repair and I've had ZERO luck getting it done. Would you be able to help me with it?

 

[dpbass66]

Considering what it costs to get a replacement board for some amps and what you can get them for used are they essentially throwaways like everything else now? We had this discussion in the a local shop and I am not talking caps and simple things, but when problems are more digital it was mentioned that it often takes longer to chase those down than they are worth and sometimes can't be solved without replacing whole boards and what not. Is there anything to this thinking? I am not a tech , but it does seem worth pondering.

I only have one Class D and I keep it as a backup for tube and hybrid amps. I do consider it my most reliable, but at least I know for a fact the other ones are repairable. What about straight non hybrid class D's? Are we now into the land of disposable amps?

I've only owned class D amps for about 18 years, since my Walter Woods blue light. After trying out a few different brands, I've now moved onto (and settled on) Bergantino. I own a B Amp and a Forte HP. I wouldnt say a $800-1200 amp is "throwaway". Bergantino, in particular, is well-known for their customer service, and while not as convenient as your local repairman, I am confident that shipping it back to the shop would get it fixed for far less than a new amp. That being said, I have never had a class D amp fail. Ever. I think my good luck with my amps is partially due to how I care for and handle them. I do think it's incumbent on the user to treat their gear with care. Amps probably shouldn't be tossed around, exposed to direct sunlight, moisture, or set up in a precarious way. This sounds obvious, but I've seen all of that.

 

[bucephylus]

Well. Aren’t these Q’s all relative?

I mean, it’s not like tube bass amps or older hybrid bass amps are either reliable or entirely repairable.

How much does it cost to retube that SVT? And, can you repair those worn out tubes? LOL. And, I’ve honestly lost track of the hybrid amps, which went wheels up, and went in the dumpster.

My experience is that the Class D amps are far more reliable. Worst case is you have to replace an ICE module? And, what does that cost vs retubing the SVT?

Sorry but I’m not losing any sleep over this Q.

 

[agedhorse]

What do you suppose the apparent failure rate will be for the sample set of current production Class D amps still out there and working 20-30 years later?

I do have class designs that are at 15 years and there are TB players who are still using these amps without any problems. They are also fully supported under the flat rate service program. Specifically the Shuttle 3.0 from 2007, and I very rarely see a bad one.

Well I have an SWR HeadLite that needs repair and I've had ZERO luck getting it done. Would you be able to help me with it?

Sorry, I am only servicing the Genz Benz products, primarily because I have all the parts and the test fixtures necessary to repair them efficiently. You might try a Fender (electronics) authorized service center, they should have access to the documentation internally through their service resources portal.

 

[Passinwind]

I do have class designs that are at 15 years and there are TB players who are still using these amps without any problems. They are also fully supported under the flat rate service program. Specifically the Shuttle 3.0 from 2007, and I very rarely see a bad one.

My old Crown K2 has been in continuous service running subs in a local dance oriented nightclub since the early ‘00s with no service of any kind required.

My intended point though is that looking at there being lots of old “conventional” amps still in service doesn’t really imply high reliability unless we can somehow factor in all the other ones that may be in landfills. I’m sure you’d have a better feel for that than me, although I definitely repaired more than my share of those pieces back in the day.

 

[Sparky Mark]

As has already been pointed out, it isn't just the output section of amps that can fail. In fact of all the amps I've owned the only one that has ever failed me was class D, and it was the pre amp that went South. I had it repaired.

 

[coreyfyfe]

That being said, I have never had a class D amp fail. Ever. I think my good luck with my amps is partially due to how I care for and handle them. I do think it's incumbent on the user to treat their gear with care. Amps probably shouldn't be tossed around, exposed to direct sunlight, moisture, or set up in a precarious way. This sounds obvious, but I've seen all of that.

Design is just as important in reliability. Many of the robust amps these days seem to take Andy’s approach and use the off the shelf power amps.

How many people dealt with major failures in their Ampeg PF/7 pro, original series orange terror bass, carvin bx (I think that’s the series?), etc., amps? How many people come here complaining about being sent through multiple layers of hoops to get their markbass, darkglass, etc, amps repaired through their strict warranty requirements. I’m sure that soured more than one person on those brands at the very least. The major issues these products had weren’t really attributable to people not caring for their amps.

It’s good there are companies who stand by their legacy product, even after the company is gone. I hope should I ever have an issue with my EA that I’ll have some recourse for repair, though given their reputation around here for legacy product support I doubt it.

 

[JakobT]

I repair class D amps every day. Rarely does it have anything to do with the class D section, and the amps I work on are fully repairable for a truly qualified tech.

I have to confess, I’ve actually never seen a live amp tech in the wild, much less a truly qualified one.

Most of us have to be content with turning in the broken amp at the store we bought it in, being told that it’s out of warranty and/or unrepairable, and end up having to recycle it.

 

[Sparky Mark]

I wonder how many of us would even think of having a 5 year old $750 television set repaired? Yet we want our amps to live forever it seems.

 

[tbz]

I wonder how many of us would even think of having a 5 year old $750 television set repaired? Yet we want our amps to live forever it seems.

To be fair. In that case it’d be like 0 of us because an upgraded replacement would cost $300.

In that exact situations TVs seem disposable because they tend to not hold any of their value after 2 years. While bass amps can run for 10-20 years without flinching and never truly lose all of their resale.

 

[mike buzzetti]

I do have class designs that are at 15 years and there are TB players who are still using these amps without any problems. They are also fully supported under the flat rate service program. Specifically the Shuttle 3.0 from 2007, and I very rarely see a bad one.



Sorry, I am only servicing the Genz Benz products, primarily because I have all the parts and the test fixtures necessary to repair them efficiently. You might try a Fender (electronics) authorized service center, they should have access to the documentation internally through their service resources portal.

What is the most common failure you see in class D ?? output section ?? just curious ( elec. tech. sense 1978 )

 

[Sparky Mark]

To be fair. In that case it’d be like 0 of us because an upgraded replacement would cost $300.

In that exact situations TVs seen disposable because they tend to not hold any of their value after 2 years. While bass amps can run for 10-20 years without flinching and never truly lose all of their resale.

Totally agree but it's interesting how many of us get bent out of shape when a 5+ year old out of warranty amp can't be economically repaired or repaired at all due to obsolescence. (I'm kinda embarrassed to say that my 2007 plasma Panasonic TV is still going strong by the way).

 

[silky smoove]

I wonder how many of us would even think of having a 5 year old $750 television set repaired? Yet we want our amps to live forever it seems.

My nearly 10 years old TV always works for me. I have a friend who's very into consumer electronics who scoffs at the notion of watching an LED TV that's "only" 1080p resolution. In his own words "I don't know how you can watch something that's not at least OLED and 4K resolution." He's a good friend... but boy do we differ on that subject

 

[Sparky Mark]

My nearly 10 years old TV always works for me. I have a friend who's very into consumer electronics who scoffs at the notion of watching an LED TV that's "only" 1080p resolution. In his own words "I don't know how you can watch something that's not at least OLED and 4K resolution." He's a good friend... but boy do we differ on that subject

Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, my 59 year old eyes aren't 4k ready any more. Probably why my old ears still appreciate my old amps too.

 

[agedhorse]

I have to confess, I’ve actually never seen a live amp tech in the wild, much less a truly qualified one.

Most of us have to be content with turning in the broken amp at the store we bought it in, being told that it’s out of warranty and/or unrepairable, and end up having to recycle it.

That's just sad IMO.

What is the most common failure you see in class D ?? output section ?? just curious ( elec. tech. sense 1978 )

It runs the gamut from power supply to class D switching, timing and everything in between. The problem is that I see so few module failures that I haven't been able to define a clear pattern. I replaced a total of 4 power modules in 2021, 2 legitimate failures, plus one that had 230V applied when set for 115V and the other was from a "tech" who was convinced that a ribbon cable was bad, removed the header from the module and soldered the wires to the PCB without realizing that he ruined the 4 layer PCB by damaging the plated holes. Turns out the problem with that amp was completely unrelated to the power module and was simply a tube pin bond that had failed intermittently inside the tube! 30 seconds of simple, basic troubleshooting could have eliminated the module as the cause. So 2 legit. failures and 2 caused by abuse to the amps.

 

[silky smoove]

Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, my 59 year old eyes aren't 4k ready any more. Probably why my old ears still appreciate my old amps too.

My 39 year old eyes (40 next month!) still have managed to retain 20/20 vision and despite that I find the aesthetic of high definition TV and movies to be weirdly off-putting. It looks strangely unnatural to me. I'm sure it's just due to me being conditioned on regular definition for a couple decades before the advent of HD that's resulted in me having a preference for the older tech in this regard, but suffice it to say; I can see it, and I don't like it

My ears on the other hand have never been happier than when using my class D Trickfish amp, or on gigs where I have no amp and am just using IEMs.