I've always felt that they are cheap basses that only cost a lot because of Sir Paul.
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I've always felt that they are cheap basses that only cost a lot because of Sir Paul.
Not arguing anything just making some points to consider, and judging by your misunderstanding, or lack of experience on what i am saying, again i am not saying don't, i am saying consider why you feel a new bass or a more expensive one will make a difference?
And again quality and good workmanship today can be bought for a decent price, cheap to me means price not quality.
You are reading in points and attributing them to me rather than your own experience... i have no experience about "You kids get off my lawn", or
"and learning or lousy bass players with expensive instruments are either spoiled kids or snobs".....which are your words not mine.
When i talk about a basses ability to create vibrato it is how hard or easy it is due to the finger/fretboard material..some offer more warm and sustain than others, so the basses ability to create vibrato is in that sense, and in that sense, as i posted before, woods used can increase the cost of the bass.
String resistance is a string tension matter, it is based on muscular resistance training if used on a string instrument, making a physical task harder to begin with makes it easier to do the task when "normal service"resumes. Also string tension can be about tone, it can be about not having a "floppy action" where the strings are to low to the fret/fingerboard. Since leaning to play in the beginning is all physical then new player has no experience of what is harder set up to play than a softer one....only experience will give them that if they stay the course.
And the last point that beginners should not buy expensive instruments due to price, is a good one, if parents are involved.
The thing is kids like the idea of things, buy them a guitar and when the realisation of the hard work and dedication needed to to be proficient on it is not what they thought...so under the bed it goes. In this matter the parent knows their child and will decide if the lie it and can do the work the promise of a "better instrument" can be an incentive to make practice more bearable.
I agree on all you say, when in context of what i am saying if i am understanding your points correctly.
I just have different experiences on how to teach and how to learn, and meet students who lie the idea of playing guitar, but not the work involved...and if they believe an expencive brand of bass will make them a better player then who am i to discourage that belief.......if it gets a positive reaction in their attitude then go for it i say....its the "Double Blind" Violin Test for basses in a way.
I hope this helps clear up any miss-understood points for yourself, or anyone reading into your thoughts on what i posted, as being mine, which they are not.
There is a HUGE difference in the the quality of my German Warwick Thumb and my Chinese Warwick Corvette, but I can make just as much money with either one. Sure, I can tell the difference while im playing, but the crowd isnt going to know one from the other. Every once in a while a bass player will wander by and comment, but thats about it.
You will always want another bass, if you are normal, but it is not necessary. There are people on here that hate Warwick basses, and im one of the people that dont care for Fender. The bass will chose you, Grasshopper!
You will always want another bass, if you are normal, but it is not necessary. There are people on here that hate Warwick basses, and im one of the people that dont care for Fender. The bass will chose you, Grasshopper!
Last edited:
- Jul 3, 2004
- 1,300
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- Endorsing Artist: Ernie Ball MusicMan Guitars
Hmm
Doesn't matter how much the bass is - how you play it does - see Marcus Miller play his new budget basses
Doesn't matter how much the bass is - how you play it does - see Marcus Miller play his new budget basses
haha thats very true,
but of course in its day it was a cheaper alternative to fender basses where they lived.
It was not a cheaper option in a way, as owning a Fender was not an option.
Trading restrictions and Import laws meant no instuments from the USA came to the UK retail markets until the early to mid 60s, so amost instruments were of European manufacture, and the desire was always to own what was seen on the TV being played by American Artists.
Paul being left handed and the Hofner Violin being symetrical meant he could turn it up side down and have no contols in his way, also from the Beatles early days playing in Hamburg the discoverd Hofner Instruments, like them and stuck with them.
The common belief is the Hank Marvin of The Shadows brought the first Strat in to the UK, and singer Cliff Richard, whose backing band was The Shadows, brought in the first P bass and presented it to Shadows Bassist, Jet Harris, both Marvin and Bennett has red instruments for the bands visuals as well.
In the 60s owning a Fender was good enough reason to be hired, whether you could play well or not, as they were few and far between in the UK and having a Fender player in the band offered credability.
Feel/playability is important. But I don't think it's necessary to have a multi thousand dollar instrument to achieve it. The brute in my profile pic was $700 new and plays as well/is as comfortable as any bass I've ever touched. But again it's all subjective and in the scale of how good I am, how much I play, and how much money I make doing it, I'm about $700 worth of bassist. 
Paul's 1961 and 1963 Hofner's were both left handed basses. They were not righties turned upside down.
Matter of personal choice. A Hyundai can haul you from point A to point B no problem, bur same road in a BMW or better yet a Ferrari feels a LOT more fun to some people. I have 2 4strings fretless basses one is a little Yamaha i paid 200$ CAN for and my Pedulla Buzz that cost me almost 20 times that. Both basses do what they are supposed to but the responsiveness of the Pedulla puts in in a completely different league. Guess wich one is the most satisfying to play? YMMV
In later years, yes the were left handed models but his first Höfner 500/1 violin bass, was a right-handed model that he turned upside down.
Paul from a Hamburg second hand shop after Stu left the band and had to turn to playing bass as well as piano and guitar.....so i believed...
But i must admit all the pictures of him playing the 500/1 are left hand models, even his "61" model with the scratch plate removed, so looks unique, is a left handed model.......they are all left hand models in pictures....yet....
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Also many other interviews share this same view, that his first bass was a right hand played upside down???? May this is an urban myth......i have yet to see a picture of him with a 500/1 right hand model played upside down in the past 20 mins of searching...???????
OK just received this on the Hofner 500/1 as used by Paul, pictures of him with the right handed bass, and a picture of the old bass, right handed, and his new bass, left handed side by side in the same picture.
mccartney3
I think there are two camps on this issue those that believe he saw the 500/1 and ordered a left hand model to be made for him, and those that believe he used a right handed one until a left handed one became available???
Either way its a cool story whatever one is right.
mccartney3
I think there are two camps on this issue those that believe he saw the 500/1 and ordered a left hand model to be made for him, and those that believe he used a right handed one until a left handed one became available???
Either way its a cool story whatever one is right.
As far as I can tell, including interviews I have seen w/ Sir Paul, the '61 is a lefty. In that picture (mccartney3), those are both his '61 and they are both lefties.
I am fairly sure that the "turned upside down" stuff is a urban legend. Back in the 50's, it was hard to find a true lefty. Back then, lefties were righties in the body with the electronics and pick guard of a lefty. That why Paul said, "It looked less daft."
I think part of it may be two countries separated by a common language
To me, a bass doens't "create" vibrato but rather enables it. Agree that certain builds will make that easier to achieve. I'm not sure that I totally agree with your reasoning on tension and resistance. This argument has played out for years with guitar teachers - nylon vs steel, string gauge, action. While students need enough resistance to build up strength and stamina, there is a point of diminishing returns and/or negative training.
At the end of the day I think we agree that there are perfectly acceptable inexpensive instruments. So a beginning student doesn't "need" an expensive bass. And in fact experienced players may not need one. But humans get to pick and choose where need and want blur in their lives.
I think part of it may be two countries separated by a common language
To me, a bass doens't "create" vibrato but rather enables it. Agree that certain builds will make that easier to achieve. I'm not sure that I totally agree with your reasoning on tension and resistance. This argument has played out for years with guitar teachers - nylon vs steel, string gauge, action. While students need enough resistance to build up strength and stamina, there is a point of diminishing returns and/or negative training.
At the end of the day I think we agree that there are perfectly acceptable inexpensive instruments. So a beginning student doesn't "need" an expensive bass. And in fact experienced players may not need one. But humans get to pick and choose where need and want blur in their lives.
Kudos for the George Bernard Shaw reference!
Wait a sec...
"Working" vibrato with the hands? Is there any other way? Since when do basses have their own "ability to create" vibrato? Or sustain? All guitars have an inherent degree of sustain baked into them at birth, cheap or expensive, and it varies from one to the next. As with any bass, a player learns how to shorten note duration, but I'd love an explanation of how a player can lengthen the duration of a note "with their hands".
Overtones. Again, all basses have overtones. Are you suggesting that some basses don't, based on price? If so, which ones? Players either learn how to control and use overtones, or they don't.
The notion that beginner players benefit from putting in "hard work" on an instrument that takes more effort to play, fades into oblivion (if ever true in the first place) as players quickly advance to a point where a better playing instrument enhances their progress as players. It's gonna be hard work anyway, why not apply that effort in a direction that will speed up the learning process? That player is (hopefully) going to end up with a well playing bass some day, anyhow. Why wait?
I think part of it may be two countries separated by a common language
To me, a bass doens't "create" vibrato but rather enables it. Agree that certain builds will make that easier to achieve. I'm not sure that I totally agree with your reasoning on tension and resistance. This argument has played out for years with guitar teachers - nylon vs steel, string gauge, action. While students need enough resistance to build up strength and stamina, there is a point of diminishing returns and/or negative training.
At the end of the day I think we agree that there are perfectly acceptable inexpensive instruments. So a beginning student doesn't "need" an expensive bass. And in fact experienced players may not need one. But humans get to pick and choose where need and want blur in their lives.
No probs, yes that the written word is not always the best way as language is subjective to the experience of those using it.
What you are posting is pretty much my experience, especially on string tensions/resistance...there comes a point of knowing when to increase or decrease it as over use of it brings no reward, and as you say can start to counter the very reason for it.
Cool and yes "enable" is the word i would use rather than "create" as it better describes the action i was highlighting.
Cool talking and thanks for taking the time to help clear up miss-understandings.
Already addressed most of these, the vibrato refers to the woods and how easy it is you create, for me vibrato is create from the elbow via the forearm through the hands, not the hands of fingers alone. My fault for not explain what i meant very well, so sorry about that if you took it literal.
Overtones, as i said you learn to control them, some over tones are "wolf notes" caused by set up, some are string choices, bridge/nut choices, amp settings, but as a rule a good EQ suite can help address these issues within a top quality bass if need be because it should have a top quality build and hardware.
For example some over tones are cool, like if you peddle an open E, try hold down an E chord at the 7 fret on the A string, and hear how just holding that shape adds overtones via resonance that can "thicken a root not tone...even try hold chorus but only play the root, yes it is harder, but it can produce great results...if we put the work in, and again is subjective.
As for putting in the hard work at the start, you agree with the idea it seems, but it is when to stop using may be the actual part to identify, as a teacher i identify it and change the students set up. As a DB player i play with a set up that many would never tolerate on an bass guitar, but my technique, and strength etc.. allows me to do it.
But the hard work at the start is a "leap of faith" we do it because only when we understand the benefits do we understand why we done it.
Some times that realisation comes quick, sometimes it months, sometimes its years....but it will come as experience in our own abilities get stronger, rather than believing it is the instrument. Classic example, and it is bang up to date, last night i played in the house band, one player that was there came to watch and did not have his bass with him...no matter how many times i asked him to play he would not because he only "trusts playing his bass"???????
Why Wait? its about learning to appreciate that what you have is good enough, have developed the experience to understand your needs.....its subjective. But as we get older we have regrets about basses/gear we sold because we did not appreciate how good it was at the time....again subjective ,but the point stands in many walks of life.....we never really appreciate what we have till its gone.
I'm going to agree with nostatic that there may be a slight language barrier here. But just to put things in perspective, I don't think you need to "explain" to anyone on this board how the mechanics of vibrato are applied. Most folks understand that their fingers are connected to their hands, which are connected to their wrists, which are connected to their forearms, and so on. Very simple. Not like trying to understand the dynamics of a golf swing.
If any bass guitar can be said to be the "standard", that would have to be the Fender Jazz Bass. A 2017 Fender Standard Jazz Bass retails for $599.99 USD street price. That's the Made in Mexico version. To step up to an American Standard, you'll pay $1199.99, and for an American Elite, $1999.99.
The quality of the wood and the components gets better as you go up the line, but the design is exactly the same, save for a few minor details. No one is going to turn you away for playing a Standard Jazz Bass or Standard Precision Bass.
I've been performing in public for over 40 years. I'm proficient enough on keyboards, guitar, and bass to play professional gigs, and I did so with my band for 20 years. There's no reason why I shouldn't be perfectly comfortable buying a professional grade instrument, and so I have an Ernie Ball Music Man StingRay with the 3-band EQ, piezo pickups, and matching headstock, and I also have a Warwick Custom Shop Corvette Proline. Both of these instruments, if purchased new today, would cost a touch over $2000 USD, I estimate.
My next bass is going to be either another StingRay like the one I have, only fretted, which will probably cost about $1500-2000 USD on the used market, since the piezo option has been discontinued, or I will build a custom Warmoth Deluxe J5 to replace the 1992 Fender Jazz Bass Plus V that was my first bass, and which I sold in 2012. That was Fender's top of the line bass in 1992, and I paid $811.00 for it. It would be equivalent to an American Deluxe, today. I am also strongly considering a Fender American Deluxe Dimension Bass.
But, my StingRay and my Warwick are at least one or two steps up in quality from any Fender instrument. That extra quality doesn't make me play any better, it just makes me happy knowing I have an instrument whose quality would satisfy my craftsmanship, were it to leave my own woodshop with my signature on it.
I have been thinking about a 6-string bass. There's a very nice Warwick Corvette Standard Ash 6-string on Reverb right now for $1619 USD. I'm sure to some people that would be a very expensive bass, but for me, that is the minimum quality level I expect in an instrument. I'm not one for overly fancy cosmetics, but I do expect my instruments to feature top quality wood and construction. I'd add a piezo setup to this bass, which would cost me a few hundred more. Graphtech Ghost ABM saddles and a Richter preamp setup.
The quality of the wood and the components gets better as you go up the line, but the design is exactly the same, save for a few minor details. No one is going to turn you away for playing a Standard Jazz Bass or Standard Precision Bass.
I've been performing in public for over 40 years. I'm proficient enough on keyboards, guitar, and bass to play professional gigs, and I did so with my band for 20 years. There's no reason why I shouldn't be perfectly comfortable buying a professional grade instrument, and so I have an Ernie Ball Music Man StingRay with the 3-band EQ, piezo pickups, and matching headstock, and I also have a Warwick Custom Shop Corvette Proline. Both of these instruments, if purchased new today, would cost a touch over $2000 USD, I estimate.
My next bass is going to be either another StingRay like the one I have, only fretted, which will probably cost about $1500-2000 USD on the used market, since the piezo option has been discontinued, or I will build a custom Warmoth Deluxe J5 to replace the 1992 Fender Jazz Bass Plus V that was my first bass, and which I sold in 2012. That was Fender's top of the line bass in 1992, and I paid $811.00 for it. It would be equivalent to an American Deluxe, today. I am also strongly considering a Fender American Deluxe Dimension Bass.
But, my StingRay and my Warwick are at least one or two steps up in quality from any Fender instrument. That extra quality doesn't make me play any better, it just makes me happy knowing I have an instrument whose quality would satisfy my craftsmanship, were it to leave my own woodshop with my signature on it.
I have been thinking about a 6-string bass. There's a very nice Warwick Corvette Standard Ash 6-string on Reverb right now for $1619 USD. I'm sure to some people that would be a very expensive bass, but for me, that is the minimum quality level I expect in an instrument. I'm not one for overly fancy cosmetics, but I do expect my instruments to feature top quality wood and construction. I'd add a piezo setup to this bass, which would cost me a few hundred more. Graphtech Ghost ABM saddles and a Richter preamp setup.
