J Design makes a bamboo guitar cab; I'm not sure that it's any lighter, though (but it sure is nice lookin'!).
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Are Lightweight Plastic Cabinets Coming Soon ??
- Thread starter 57pbass
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- cabinets lightweight plastic
J Design makes a bamboo guitar cab; I'm not sure that it's any lighter, though (but it sure is nice lookin'!).
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
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Didn't see one, but at NAMM any time I can listen to a good upright player for a few minutes it's a bonus.
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Stig Pedersen, everybody! With a bonus clear drum kit in the background.
The difference between your observations and mine is that I don’t have to use the terms “probably” or “imagine”. I’m not making stuff up or relying on supposition. I’ve heard K.12 cabs in actual use, with no preamp, with an import passive bass that costs less than $1500. As mentioned, it sounded as good, if not better, than anything else out there. If a player can’t get a good sound out of them, it’s more on the player than the K.12. Plus, you can go out and buy QSC stuff and get warranty support because they’re still solvent and in business. Not the case with SWR.
My point was and is that ABS cabs do work well in a band setting and appear to be a viable alternative to wood construction. Of course, guesses always count more on a forum like this that actual experience, so here’s to that.
If this band was in Hawaii, they could be called The All Clear band....i.e. no missles' sighted.
Ooh, too soon?
- Feb 12, 2006
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Before you jump down omega monkey's post, the input impedance of the K12 is 20k ohms, far too low for almost any passive bass and the sensitivity is pretty low too, even for many active basses.
This is why a preamp will be helpful in most cases.
My thought is that plywood is the original composite material, and is far from obsolete. It's strong and stiff. It can be worked without expensive tooling, which has a couple of advantages. First, there's the tooling cost. Tooling for most molding processes is darn expensive, and a fair amount of engineering has to go into large pieces that are strong, and that fit together when all is said and done. You have to sell a lot of bass cabs to recoup that cost. Second, you can make minor modifications to a plywood design without paying for a new tool.
An interesting parallel is in computer chips. I vividly remember reading in a magazine, more than 20 years ago, that gallium arsenide was going to replace silicon as the stuff of computer chips, because GaAs is "faster" in terms of electron mobility and is used in microwave circuits for that reason. But every advance towards turning GaAs into computer chips was met by an increase in the speed of silicon chips by reducing the size of the transistors. Good old slow silicon has kept itself in business despite not being the first choice from a purely theoretical standpoint.
In a similar vein, I expect plywood to continue serving in bass cabs for a long time.
An interesting parallel is in computer chips. I vividly remember reading in a magazine, more than 20 years ago, that gallium arsenide was going to replace silicon as the stuff of computer chips, because GaAs is "faster" in terms of electron mobility and is used in microwave circuits for that reason. But every advance towards turning GaAs into computer chips was met by an increase in the speed of silicon chips by reducing the size of the transistors. Good old slow silicon has kept itself in business despite not being the first choice from a purely theoretical standpoint.
In a similar vein, I expect plywood to continue serving in bass cabs for a long time.
Actually this is a real concern. I made a really well braced (fiberglass over foam core) 215 cab that weighed around 35#. REALLY well braced. It danced all over the place and a little class d amp wouldn't stay on top.
I guess that my ear/brain connection functions differently from yours
Thanks for the condescension.
As mentioned, I've seen Darryl Jones perform with his namesake unmodified import Lakland, which sells for under $1500. I'm not in love with appeal to authority arguments, but your location suggests you know who he is. He kinda did play with Miles Davis and moved on through many other name artists until he landed with The Stones. Does your resume compare to that?
I've seen him use that import bass through QSC gear in a small clubs backing up Grammy winning Jazz luminaries and these artists seemed to have no issue with his sound and seemed to be happy to hire him for future engagements.
Your ear/brain connection must function differently from theirs as well.
Of course I know Munch. (his Chicago nickname) Great guy, great player. I know Laklands well. Dan and I were friends before Lakland. We live a mile apart.
My resume isn't as illustrious as Darryl's. I'm a jazzer. Darryl isn't really. He's a fantastic funk and pop player. I have a lot of respect for him. His sister is a great singer and we played in a band together. I've only played on one Grammy-winning recording. (on lots of nominated ones) I've toured and recorded with many top jazz artists and have spent most of my life touring around the world. Enough of that.
As a manufacturer I can't criticize competing products except to say that my taste is different. I heard Anthony Jackson play at the 55 with his entire $10k pa rig. I was very disappointed. I couldn't hear any distinction between notes. It was a big blur. I think I may know why-----it wasn't designed to do that. Sounds good in theory, though.
Some of my speakers are designed for large rooms. In a small room they won't sound nearly as good as one designed for that purpose. A Fridge would sound pretty crummy in a coffee shop gig. That's not what it was designed for. (although on one gig (on double bass) in a huge Paris concert hall they supplied a Fridge for backline. I decided to go with it. I kindof dug it! I was an endorser for EA at the time and took a pic with my little EA Micro sitting on top of the SVT---they almost used it in an ad)
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Corn. I like corn. Buttered corn with dinner. Corn flakes in the morning. Popcorn at the movies. Corn dogs. God I never realize how much corn I like. I have some corn dogs in the freezer. I'm going to heat up the oven and warm them up nice and slowly so they crisp up. Then I'll dip them in cold mustard. MMMMmmm. Corn dogs. I'll be right back! drool
LOL, the overall Goliath design has been around almost 35 years, and they got more robust over time. There are PLENTY out there still in circulation that are PRISTINE (functionally at least) and sound amazing that are 10-20+ years old. And again, it costs a fifth of your dual K12 rig, so why would you need a warranty? It either works and you buy it, or it doesn't and you don't. If you're not an idiot, it should last damn near forever. And then all that money you save you go buy a real bass amp that is designed for bass.
$1500 is hardly cheap for a bass. And unless you went on stage and poked around, there is likely something else in the signal chain that you're not aware of (especially considering Aged Horse's assertion of the input impedence). Just because it wasn't there at his feet or sitting on top of the cabs doesn't mean it didn't exist. May have even been going direct into the board and back out through an aux send with who knows what processing. I do live sound professionally, and one of the biggest shortcuts to lousy sound is some kind of impedence mismatch (like running your keyboard from the headphone jack, etc...).
I've heard people try to use powered speakers as amps, it's never been as impressive as a well designed purpose built system (especially without something in front), because why would it be? In some settings it can work, in others merely passable, and in others not at all. It really depends. But literally ANY band can go out there with a Goliath III or IV and a GK700 and they will sound absolutely fantastic, for less than the cost of a single new K12, with no other gadgets required.
Now for keyboards, a pair of K12s would be pretty good if you add a small mixer, but you could still do better for the price. Honestly I feel the whole K series is kind of overpriced and overrated. And they're simply not at all designed for electro-magnetic instruments (with nothing else in between).
But hey, I'm also the guy who sees all these "1000w" rated powered speakers and thinks "Really? Your single 12 and horn is getting slammed with 1000w? Right". A well designed full range speaker is an ecological system and everything has to be in balance, and I just don't trust that technology is that good yet for those power ratings to be realistic. So maybe those K12s are really more like 250 RMS.
Which is not bad.... for a keyboard rig or PA mains for a small venue. But as a bass amp in a louder rock band, 2 12s at 500w might just barely get you by. A 4x10 has about 50% more surface area. And even though a 4x10 is sort of a standard for most gigs, if it was practical, I'd still rather have 2 of those.
So again, with a nice active bass in a small setting playing jazz or other similarly subdued music, the K12s would probably do ok, but I'd still rather have at least some sort of preamp pedal or rack, and ultimately I'd still rather just have a nice bass cab than a PA speaker.
Now, the right passive PA speakers run from a bass amp can be great. I've actually used my JBL 12s with my SWR and besides a little low mid clutter from being tuned a bit high, they sound really nice. But that's a completely different world from the K12s by themselves.
But if someone wants to donate a pair of K12s to me, I will gladly give them a full workout under a variety of conditions and configurations and see if they're able to change my mind from my experience with them so far.
$1500 is hardly cheap for a bass. And unless you went on stage and poked around, there is likely something else in the signal chain that you're not aware of (especially considering Aged Horse's assertion of the input impedence). Just because it wasn't there at his feet or sitting on top of the cabs doesn't mean it didn't exist. May have even been going direct into the board and back out through an aux send with who knows what processing. I do live sound professionally, and one of the biggest shortcuts to lousy sound is some kind of impedence mismatch (like running your keyboard from the headphone jack, etc...).
I've heard people try to use powered speakers as amps, it's never been as impressive as a well designed purpose built system (especially without something in front), because why would it be? In some settings it can work, in others merely passable, and in others not at all. It really depends. But literally ANY band can go out there with a Goliath III or IV and a GK700 and they will sound absolutely fantastic, for less than the cost of a single new K12, with no other gadgets required.
Now for keyboards, a pair of K12s would be pretty good if you add a small mixer, but you could still do better for the price. Honestly I feel the whole K series is kind of overpriced and overrated. And they're simply not at all designed for electro-magnetic instruments (with nothing else in between).
But hey, I'm also the guy who sees all these "1000w" rated powered speakers and thinks "Really? Your single 12 and horn is getting slammed with 1000w? Right". A well designed full range speaker is an ecological system and everything has to be in balance, and I just don't trust that technology is that good yet for those power ratings to be realistic. So maybe those K12s are really more like 250 RMS.
Which is not bad.... for a keyboard rig or PA mains for a small venue. But as a bass amp in a louder rock band, 2 12s at 500w might just barely get you by. A 4x10 has about 50% more surface area. And even though a 4x10 is sort of a standard for most gigs, if it was practical, I'd still rather have 2 of those.
So again, with a nice active bass in a small setting playing jazz or other similarly subdued music, the K12s would probably do ok, but I'd still rather have at least some sort of preamp pedal or rack, and ultimately I'd still rather just have a nice bass cab than a PA speaker.
Now, the right passive PA speakers run from a bass amp can be great. I've actually used my JBL 12s with my SWR and besides a little low mid clutter from being tuned a bit high, they sound really nice. But that's a completely different world from the K12s by themselves.
But if someone wants to donate a pair of K12s to me, I will gladly give them a full workout under a variety of conditions and configurations and see if they're able to change my mind from my experience with them so far.
I think the issue with making a 35 pound 2x15 is that the power of the cab is so great that it's not damped enough by it's own weight. So if the goal is to get more power and less weight, eventually you cross that line, at whatever scale you're working. The only work around would seem to be very gel like rubbery feet, and maybe a sandbag or 2 on top of the cab. Or perhaps some kind of collapsible bracing system, ie use simple machines but in reverse. Sort of the same concept of a tightrope walker having a long staff, so the effect of movements is minimized. I don't know, I'm not a mechanical engineer, I'm just brainstorming. But I'm imagining something like a cage frame with "legs" that extend out flat along the floor (with felt or foam underneath) for maybe 2 feet in each direction. So that to torque in one direction or the other, it would have to pivot upwards from 2 feet or more away from where the center of gravity is. OR maybe just 2 little fold down flaps on the sides that you put some little beanbag/sandbags on (like you find backstage at a theater, or in a recording studio for mic stands). So you have your 35 pound 1000w dual 15 cab that slays, and the only downside is carrying around 2 or 4 5 or 10 pound little sandbags. But I'm sure there must be workarounds.
I just looked them up, these aren't monitor speakers right? They act as regular cabinets?
I'm baffled how the sound could travel towards the audience. I've seen a similar design by one other person and he claimed the same things as Sonusphere.
Anyway thanks for the info.
I had to put velcro on my 12" cabs and TX600 class D amp because it would vibrate to the floor.
Well, they make guitar, bass, PA monitors, and PA main speakers (which point out from a stand, not on the floor). Steve Mosher (Moses Graphite) is the man, and is a pretty technical dude. Check out the other FAQ stuff if you haven't; they are definitely designed to "fill a room," rather than "beam the sound" like a regular cab (sort of like the Bose L1 tower does -- he compares the two on the site), so you can gig just like your main rig. I've only tried one at a rehearsal, not a gig, yet, and it certainly did its job!
- Mar 8, 2011
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- Authorized greenboy designs builder/Owner of BNA Audio
Seems like around 10 years ago or less, this was a hot button topic around here. The race to make the lightest cabs. I messed around with it myself, trying a bunch of different methods (foam/glass, acrylics, aluminum) as well as looking into injection molds. It was just way too expensive, labor intensive, working with toxic materials, blah blah. I couldn’t come up with anything I’d consider viable. I can think of a couple commercial attempts at ultra light composite cabs that ranged from spotty to disastrous. I can see someone coming up with some great new ideas, but as a small batch boutique builder, it just made no sense at the time. And as has been said here, if the cab is too light, it’s gonna walk around.
