Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Are my shim and bottomed out saddle screws putting too much pressure on my bridge?
- Thread starter Stagelab
- Start date
I'm not convinced about the saddle thing. I don't see it making a difference.
edit: it's like this one, isn't it?
edit: it's like this one, isn't it?
The 2 little screws that adjust the saddle height are a little 'funky'.
Look at the A string saddle: one side is is much higher than the other, in the opposite orientation that I would expect. So is teh E string, but a bit less.
OP: what happens if you level each saddle? (not with each other, simply having each saddle more horizontal like)
Look at the A string saddle: one side is is much higher than the other, in the opposite orientation that I would expect. So is teh E string, but a bit less.
OP: what happens if you level each saddle? (not with each other, simply having each saddle more horizontal like)
In accordance with DanD's suggestion, if you detune and get the saddles straight again, do they go crooked when you put tension back on them? It could be caused just by uneven pressure as you lower one side v the other in adjustment under pressure.
That said, I've shimmed all of my bolt on neck basses. One of these basses has lived the last 12 years through over 100 shows with a business card shim in the neck pocket, 12 thou neck relief and a similar action to what you're attempting to achieve (close to being down at the deck). I would say you don't have to work about it unless you see things starting to give. And if that happens, the instrument had problems to start with before you started trying to get it to an ideal playing setup.
That said, I've shimmed all of my bolt on neck basses. One of these basses has lived the last 12 years through over 100 shows with a business card shim in the neck pocket, 12 thou neck relief and a similar action to what you're attempting to achieve (close to being down at the deck). I would say you don't have to work about it unless you see things starting to give. And if that happens, the instrument had problems to start with before you started trying to get it to an ideal playing setup.
I don’t think I understand. I can’t get the saddles to sit horizontally. That’s the issue at hand. I tried loosening the strings a ton and manually moving the saddles but I couldn’t level all of them—couldn’t move the A string saddle at all—and now all four string ends are at an angle from the end of the bridge to the saddles. See pic.
Your Sadowsky has the E and G saddles like mine, with the screws on the outside of each saddle. Yet your saddles are horizontal. I think you’re right, that swapping those two saddles might not solve the problem.
I sent an email to Warwick to see what they think. They handle all Sadowsky Metroexpress support tickets.
Attachments
Last edited:
If they were to be swapped the grooves would be off the edge of the bridge plate. The photo I showed was of a completely different company and was only to show how the saddles should be in alignment with the string hole in the back of the bridge and not be pulling the strings to one or the other side.
Yep, you're right. The other Sadowsky photos seem to confirm that this is simply how Roger implemented the bridge saddles on these bass designs.
I feel that the saddles are not correct for the bridge. Don't know exactly why they are on there, but they don't line up somehow. The strings shouldn't have that much lateral distance to be "in the groove".
Warwick said the saddles are all the same, only flipped 180 degrees to switch the side that the intonation screw is engaging on, so they are all in the right order. They haven’t provided a solution to the alignment issue yet. I know some of these basses had QA issues. Makes me wonder if the bridge is defective or as you said the saddles don’t fit properly.
The saddles seem to be correct but I think the string holes are in the wrong place.
I don’t have an urge to buy a new bridge so if this issue isn’t going to cause problems, then I guess I’d just leave it be.
I meant parallel to the bass body surface. Each saddle has one big screw to move if forwards and backwards, and two little ones to adjust the height. On your E and A saddles, it looks like one side is much higher than the other.
Another thing to look at on fretless for lower action is the nut. I file my slots in the nut to a hair above the fretboard. This also gives a bit of mwaa to the open strings. If you shim the neck, it should be to tilt it back. That way you can raise the bridge back up and have full string height adjustment. As stated above, the neck should have little to no relief. It looks like part of the problem is that the bridge was installed too close to the pickup. That would explain why the saddles are pushed so far to the rear. Here is a picture of another Sadowsky with the saddles sitting much better and the bridge farther from the pickup.
Last edited:
I might suggest this: Use a thicker shim, narrow, placed just at the neck heel, a bit shorter than the width of the neck pocket, maybe 1/2" wide. This will tilt the neck back and consequently lower the action to a point where the bridge saddles will have to be raised so the strings don't lay on the fingerboard. In addition, it will make the distance from bridge to nut slightly longer so the saddles will need to be extended to properly intonate (insofar as that's doable on a fretless) and the saddles won't be so jammed up against the bridge backplate. Finally, that break angle provided by the shim will make 1st position playing a bit easier as well. I've done a lot of these. Works well for me. YMMV.
BBB
BBB
Do you mean one saddle screw is higher than the other both for the E and A? If the screws are set to the same height, the saddles won’t be level vertically.
That’s probably the root of the issue. Good catch. EDIT: I think the pic you posted is of a Metroline. Mine is a Metroexpress. Pics of these show a shorter gap between the bridge pickup and the bridge, like mine.Another thing to look at on fretless for lower action is the nut. I file my slots in the nut to a hair above the fretboard. This also gives a bit of mwaa to the open strings. If you shim the neck, it should be to tilt it back. That way you can raise the bridge back up and have full string height adjustment. As stated above, the neck should have little to no relief. It looks like part of the problem is that the bridge was installed too close to the pickup. That would explain why the saddles are pushed so far to the rear. Here is a picture of another Sadowsky with the saddles sitting much better and the bridge farther from the pickup.
Example:
The nut on my bass is adjustable and it’s at its lowest. It’s very close to the board.
Last edited:
Originally I used a business card. If I go thicker, I won’t be able to raise the action enough before some of the saddle screws become loose.
The only way I could fix that problem is if I lowered those screws and raised the others, per saddle. But then the saddles will be crooked vertically.
What do you recommend?
Last edited:
I have, on occasion, ordered longer screws (all sorts of lengths and sizes, metric and English, are available on eBay and Amazon) if the shim tilts back that far. I personally have not had issues with the saddles needing to be parallel to the body, and in fact usually angle the saddles to mimic the fingerboard radius. Bet of luck! Keep me posted!
BBB
I’ll try a thicker shim tomorrow and will level the screws first, to generate more headroom for raising the action. I’ll probably just use the same business card as before and the copy paper that’s in the neck pocket currently.
"I usually string my basses with 4/64” on the G, D and A and 5/64” on the E, all measured at the highest frets."
- Highest frets? Not sure what you mean by 'highest frets"?
A well setup bridge will not be so crooked like that. I see three things that are likely wrong with the bridge setup and may be contributing to the saddle height limitation. You need to fix the bridge issues before shimming the neck.
1. The one top view of the bridge isn't going to show if the saddles are level but the saddle screws indicate they are not (assuming the screws are all the same length). We can see that the E and A saddles screws have one side raised while the other screw is lower or deep in the saddle. If the saddles are not level then the sides of the saddles will not sit flush with each other and cause them to bunch up like that
2. Another cause of the saddles bunching up is that all four saddles are not perpendicular to the strings. Again this will prevent the sides of the saddles to not sit flush with each other.
3. The saddles being pulled back so far that the silk winding is sitting on four saddles indicates something isn't right. How's the intonation? You can remove some silk from the strings and that will lower the strings slightly but won't help the saddle alignment.
to completely redo the bridge setup and start from scratch. This is assuming the neck
What I would do is start completely over with the bridge setup as if a new bridge was installed.
The neck/truss rod must be adjusted properly before any bridge adjustments are made. Take another look at how your setting the neck relief before doing anything else.
A. Loosen or remove the string so they are out of the way.
B. Remove the saddle screws completely to make sure they are all equal length screws.
C. Extend the saddles back towards the nut at least far enough so they are off the silk.
D. Align the saddles so they are perpendicular to the strings.
E. Tune the strings
F. Adjust the string height by adjusting the saddles. Since you're now starting out with level saddles turn each screw only 1/4 or 1/2 turn and alternate to keep them level.
G. With the saddles now aligned and level, adjust the intonation. This may be a tedious process since you're starting from scratch. It's possible you may not need to shim the neck at all but if you did all this and you can't get it low enough then I'd look at shimming the neck or consider replacing the bridge with a different design.
Hope this helps.
Last edited:
