Are the big amps history?

[SteveBassJr]

I use a Phil Jones amp cub and an 100 watt extension cab for some gig's (200WAtts). Sounds great and has lots of punch.
Others either my Aguilar db112X2 or Markbass 102p with the Aggie ag 700 head. Plenty of air moved and my back don't hurt!

 

[Badwater]

Live Audio has changed a lot from the days when the big amps and crappy PA systems were the standard (think 1970s and early 1980s). The evolution of Bass in the live mix has also changed in the early 90s, where sub frequencies are now able to be felt by the audience. Thus, large and even some small venues have modern high tech PA systems that can deliver better sound across a room or auditorium or outdoor arena. In that respect, the large amps are not really needed. And in most cases they are for monitoring, and show. Nevertheless, there are times when the big amps do serve a higher purpose, and that's for the tone. Nothing sounds like a power tube amp when it's overdriven at high volumes.

 

[bwoodman]

For me, big amps have been history since my first micro amp in 1996 - a Walter Woods green light, which I believe was 450W @ 4 ohms. I first saw a WW when I used to go to the famous Baked Potato jazz club in Hollywood and Jimmy Johnson would be playing through his WW head and a pair of 112 cabs with his Alembic and sounding amazing. This was the mid to late 80s - not sure why it took me a few years to finally buy a WW. I had sent away for a brochure etc and was definitely on my GAS list. I went through all the usual gear starting in 1980 with a Fender Bassman 135 and 215 cab, then to the Acoustic 220 with 215 cab, GK 800RB with a 15 and 210 cab when bi-amping was the thing, then on to the whole SWR thing - had the SM400 with the 410 cab, then discovered pretty good results with a pair of 210 cabs....then finally buying the WW head and ran that through the pair of 210 cabs for many years. The 60 lb. 210 cab was way better than dealing with the 80 lb. 410 cab. Fast forward to the last few years, I sold the WW mainly because when Walter retires, there 'aint nobody to service them, so I jumped into a Genzler rig and several different cabs and it's great! Long story short, I'd been trying to down-size since I first saw Johnson playing through that WW head. I never even considered trying to haul around an SVT head and 810 cab. I always leaned towards more portable rigs - and now they are everywhere, but I'm pretty sure WW was the first with the class D switch mode power etc etc.

 

[Joe Ty]

@jkalads please link us to the Craigslist ads where tube amps are sitting and reducing in price. That has not happened in my area...

Haven't seen it in Milwaukee, either. What I have seen is $3000-$4000 analog sound boards in mint condition going for $300.

 

[aborgman]

Sorry, but what you are getting at has nothing to do with how digital is defined:

Definition of DIGITAL

3. of, relating to, or using calculation by numerical methods or by discrete units

 

[lpbfender]

I thought I read somewhere that when Acoustic came out with that massive 360/361 thing, it was the equivalent of $10,000 in today's dollars

$8,150 in today's dollars

 

[tom-g]

3. of, relating to, or using calculation by numerical methods or by discrete units

I beg to differ. What you are talking about is a representation. The representation is digital but that does not make the real thing digital.

 

[aborgman]

I beg to differ. What you are talking about is a representation. The representation is digital but that does not make the real thing digital.

All analog physical things are composed of discrete quanta. Can you have 1.63275 electrons? No. You can have one or two. Everything at a low enough level is composed of discrete, nondivisble units.

 

[Buster Brown]

I'm seriously thinking about having a "SVT" empty cab built (for my big-stage band), with a hinged door on the back, empty but with racks, and it being a big roadcase for cables, drums, etc. All while using my Carvin Micro stack.

Well, it's not a bad idea Let's be honest here....the average person has a mindset about what a rock and roll band "should" look like on stage and it usually includes amps, drums, Keyboards (if you have 'em) and that's about it.

I distinctly recall the night I took my MB 121P to rehearsal.....they laughed for about 20 minutes - until I fired it up..then they changed their tune. But like our drummer said - "Just don't bring that thing to a show"...of course, when I added the extension 121 cabinet, it helped a little, but not much.

Or, like our "vocalist" at the time said -" if that damned amp isn't making my guts jump - it ain't big enough" But again, we all (two guitarists and me) had multiple rigs to use at different venues. Hell, we once played a coffee house where there was barely enough room for the drums (and all I had with me was the SVT and 8x10 cab)...that was a mess.

 

[eigentone]

First off, I am on your side.

BUT... At the micro domain, all of that digital hardware, all of those chips, are just electrical circuits. Analog circuits. The zeroes and ones are represented at the most basic level by voltages. Deep in the guts, computers are actually still analog machines, using analog tech (voltages) to define the zeroes and ones. Ideally the voltage would be either 0 or 5 volts (for example) but often in practice it is either 0.6 or 4.2 volts. No problem there! But what about when it is 2.6 volts? Or fluctuating continuously between 2 volts and 2.7 volts. Yuck.

If you've ever dealt with flash memory as it goes bad in an embedded system you would have lived through this particular slice of technological hell.

True, digital electronic circuits employ analog levels at the lowest levels. Even at that level, analog and digital data/signals are interpreted differently.

More complete representations of these systems allow us to distinguish analog and digital circuits, analog and digital computers, and analog and digital signals.

While technically that may be accurate, you have to also realize that once you step away from the microscope that in that example we are dealing with a digital system.

 

[Buster Brown]

Incorrect.

CD is a delivery format. Recording is done at higher sample rates and bit depths to allow flexibility for all sorts of processing before the final mix. You can get very excellent results even from the basic red book CD format by optimizing the final product to the format of 16 bits at 44.1 Hz.

Pictures are a very good analogy for this: You shoot and process the image at a much higher resolution than is required for the final output, such as print. But the final output is downscaled to suit the medium. You say that analog pictures are only limited by the quality of the lens, but you might be too young to remember putting up with film grain, esepcially on higher ISO films, in images. Analog resolution is not in any way infinte unless its bandwidth is also infinite, and that is not a realistic option in any system. And analog is not necessarily better at being true to the source material unless you're comparing a crappy digital system with a good analog one.

As a former professional photographer, I can absolutely attest to your film analogy. I remember when Kodak came out with the 1500 ISO film.....what a grainy nightmare! Of course, the higher ISO film didn't have too big an impact on larger format cameras such as a Press camera 8 by 10 or even medium format cameras like Hasselblad...

But for 35MM? The results were terrible.

 

[Buster Brown]

<<1. It looks damn cool.>>

Nothing looks cool about hauling a giant rig up two flights of stairs in those two story venues midwesterners like to put live clubs in. Especially the "Subterranean" in Chicago. When you're halfway up that torture chamber, you learn to love DI boxes, small amps and supplied backlines.

I spent several years of my youth hauling big assed amps, a Hammond B-3 (with TWO Leslies), PA Gear, Drums and all that other crap up 2-3 flights of stairs. And my girlfriend wondered where I came by those six-pack abs....

 

[alaskaleftybass]

So if digital systems equals oranges and analog systems equals apples, what does lemons then equal to you?

Also if digital systems are so perfect why do they rely 100% on imperfect analog systems to work?

CARROTS!! For Goodness Sake! Not once in this thread has anyone mentioned carrots!

 

[HolmeBass]

No, it isn't.

Digital does not mean only two states (binary) - it just means DISCRETE states... and in the end, we can't subdivide electrons.

Digital means a series of data expressed as digits; numbers. The base is irrelevant. You can assign those numbers to represent discrete states, or to approximate continuous data. It is an abstraction.

This is absolutely different from the physical reality at the quantum mechanical level, where the uncertainty principle comes into play. Even using quantum states as a way to record your digital data is different than the states themselves. Digital always implies an abstraction.

I stand by my initial assertion.

 

[aborgman]

Digital means a series of data expressed as digits; numbers. The base is irrelevant. You can assign those numbers to represent discrete states, or to approximate continuous data. It is an abstraction.

This is absolutely different from the physical reality at the quantum mechanical level, where the uncertainty principle comes into play. Even using quantum states as a way to record your digital data is different than the states themselves. Digital always implies an abstraction.

I stand by my initial assertion.

Digital doesn't only apply to abstraction/representation.

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[lpbfender]

Interesting debate going on here.

I've been playing bass since I was 11, that's 1971 and I've owned all kinds of rigs. For me onstage, I need to feel the bass and without it overwhelming the stage or being boomy. Small venues smaller rigs etc.

I can say that of all the solid state, tube, hybrids, class d I owner and it played through... stats mean nothing beyond a certain point.

Tube is warm and adds grit, class D is power but lacks depth of character and all is us inbetween.

Bigger speakers add power and move air; more big speakers add more power and air/ but lack sparkle sharp punch.

 

[HolmeBass]

Digital doesn't only apply to abstraction/representation.

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That is string theory. Heavy on the theory! Again, I stand by my assertion that digital means "pertaining to digits", as in numbers. That is a pretty common definition, I am sure you can find it on Google just as easy as I did.

We shall have to agree to disagree. Computing theory at the high level is digital. The circuits that implement that digital logic are analog. The quantum reality down below those voltages does not impact these machines as we use them today.

 

[ljazz]

I consider myself fortunate. My band is a three piece, and we play with what most would consider low stage volume.... I could get away with my b15 most gigs. We also have a nice PA, and run everything through it most gigs.... Even in all but the smallest of venues. But we still run backline. I play a Shaw Audio B150 and either a 115 or a Heritage 810 (on bigger stages). I also have a Aguilar th500 and a couple of gk neo 112's. While the aggy sounds really really good, it is nowhere near as good sounding as the Shaw. For grab and go, or as a backup, I can't imagine anything any better than the aggy (especially for the low mid, old school, grunty tone I go for). But we are normally carting in our PA and other gear, so setting the head on top of something and rolling it in is not a problem. And the simple fact for me is that the balanced out off of the Shaw's OT sounds absolutely fantastic. I can't get that tone off a micro. Even when listening back to recordings made out front, there is no question it's a tube head.

I guess there are a lot of folks with a similar situation...... Why compromise when you don't have to? With that in mind, I think there will always be a market for the bigger gear.

 

[4-fingers]

I've been using Ampeg Portaflex cabs and amps for about 6 years. Good sound, pretty portable and was reliable for me. I decided to make a change and now I'm playing through a Traynor tube head and Mesa cabs. Honestly, I picked up a folding cart and it's an easier move than rolling those portaflex cabs. The sound is just magic and I won't be going back to solid state anytime soon. I'm 51 and gig twice a month on average.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

It's funny how times change. Seven years ago this post would have been hung up to dry and like in a Frankenstein movie, the monster who posted it would have been burned LOL.
I love the sound of an SVT/810 especially 3/4 through the night when the air is damp with heat from the audience and everyone is dancing. That part of the magic JUST IS part of the experience. But then again I'm from the generation that used the big rigs and they were expected back in my heyday. We played LOUD and I've lost partial hearing because of it. Regret it? H3LL NO!

Now I'm older and I'm trying to find the best balance between power, presence, and portability. I've gone through a lot of cabinets these last few years (thanks a lot TB'ers for GAS LOL) and still haven't found a cab that sounds as good as an 810, 410, or 215. There's something about that 18" depth, 48" tall, and 25" wide that makes your feet numb after a couple sets. And it radiates out to the audience. My days of enjoying that pleasure are most likely behind me (I envy you @JimmyM ) but even as my gigs get smaller, my gear will be smaller but I"m going to want the most power and portability both. I see the new norm of class D in the future to be 1,000 watts. I've tried various forms of 112's and 110's but I'm realizing I need bigger cabinets. Which ones? Still studying that part. But they can't weigh 67 pounds for me anymore. But heck I WANT them to sound like 67 pounds!

Note the gradual acceptance of smaller rigs on TB and all the discussions ultralight cabs and Class D's get nowadays. And yes, sad to say, classifieds everywhere are filled with large Iron gear we old farts treasured and yearned for when we were young. And yet in most music stores you still see Ampeg SVT's, Marshal stacks, Mesa stacks. It's becoming a mixed world tubers have to share with Class D and ultralight cabs.

Third world problems right? We should be so lucky to live in this era. I think as bass players we have it better off than guitarists. Our technology is in a Renaissance of sorts. Quickly evolving into exciting things. There will always be room for an SVT/810 somewhere on stage EVERY NIGHT for years to come.