Either you don't want to understand what anybody's saying, or you hearing something that's not there. I give up. Nobody said any of what you think they did. Oh well, nobody is going to change you.
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Are Theory-Nazis anti-fun?
- Thread starter brewer9
- Start date
Either you don't want to understand what anybody's saying, or you hearing something that's not there. I give up. Nobody said any of what you think they did. Oh well, nobody is going to change you.
You'll have to admit, though, that these kind of flame wars, seen upon from an objective point of view, are really, really stupid.
I can't think of any positive development where this thread will contribute to.
Stop this, your lawn needs you.
I can't think of any positive development where this thread will contribute to.
Stop this, your lawn needs you.
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,402
- 9,834
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
Originally posted by brewer9
This is the type of statement that aggravates people like me. Although I'm sure you're an excellent player and no credit should be taken from you on that front at all. You're attitude is very "My way or the highway"
not at all. my attitude is "I've seen over and over again that knowing music will allow you to do anything you want to do musically.
First, whether someone "grooves" or not is subjective. Geezer Butler in my opinion was the best "groover" of all time (you may disagree because its a subjective opinion), yet Geezer didnt read music or know theory in a strict educational sense.
True, groove is totally subjective. However, when a certain group of people recognize one of their peers overwhelmingly as a master of a certain area (for instance, you may hate Jaco, but the vast majority of bassists recognize him as one of the greatest ever), you can draw some conclusions from that. You may love Geezer's playing, but I can't remember ever seeing him lauded as a groover, and I certainly don't see him as one. Different strokes, I guess. Geezer also didn't need to know music from a technical standpoint, Black Sabbath was hardly a technicaly demanding band, nor was their music in any way complex.
Secondly, your involvement in music is totally different than what some other players want to do. Not everyone has any interest in playing Swing, Bossa, Samba, shuffle, or Salsa Tumbao, etc.
You're right. You took my point out of context. What I was trying to say was that my knowledge base and ability to groove in countless styles have kept me busy as a musician. I certainly don't think if you don't want to study music that you should anyway. Just don't be surpised if someone who knows music (more than rock) takes your job.
Please understand that some players love a variety of different styles that you may have no clue about, such as Death or Black Metal, Ambient Moodcore, Psychedelics, and Melodic Power Thrash.
First, don't presume to tell me what I've got no clue about. I played metal as a youth, and did so professionally. Psychedelic? That's been around since before you were born, but guess what? I'll bet my next gig check that it only contains 12 notes, and I could get around quite well, thanks. And as someone else said "Ambient Moodcore? Melodic Power Thrash?" Stop making stuff up.
You are clearly superb at what you do, but I would put money down that you would have trouble doing what I'm doing. Sure, maybe I'd be even better if I knew which ancient tribe created the root notes of a particular scale, but its not the end all of everything.
I've said it before, I'll take that bet. I'd love to hear some of your band's music, please post a link for us, otherwise, your just annonymous, hiding behind a computer screen.
And by the way, a scale can only have one root note
Just because they dont do what you do doesnt mean that they therefore know "only rock."
Just because I don't do what you do (anymore) doesn't mean that I "don't have a clue" about the music you do.
I'd also like to point you in the direction of a friend of mine. His music is nothing like what I like to do, yet he knows music inside out, understands musical precepts like tension and release, different areas of the beat, etc etc. His band plays dark, hard music - and I've never called him a moron (mostly because he's not ). He doesn't play jazz or funk or latin, and he's never called me a snob. We both have talked at length about Bach, Hendrix, Metallica and everything in between with respect. He's a hell of a good player that knows a lot about music (and he still has fun) His name is John Turner. Or is he a Theory Natzi too?
Please dont take offense at my comments, I am just pointing out the subtle nature of the attitude that many dont realize they even have. [/B]
All of us have attitude. I'm not going to hide mine.
OK< one last post before I head out to my vacation.
Believe it or not, you guys may have persuaded me to re-examine my view on this. Your remarks (most of 'em anyway) were pretty good and helpful, rather than just cutdowns (such as the "junior's gonna beat me up" comment which actually was the most Junior of anything on the thread).
Thanks, Pacman especially. I definately would like to check out your band, or bands, sometime.
Keep on Rockin (I mean Sambaing, etc.)
Later, til June!!!!
Believe it or not, you guys may have persuaded me to re-examine my view on this. Your remarks (most of 'em anyway) were pretty good and helpful, rather than just cutdowns (such as the "junior's gonna beat me up" comment which actually was the most Junior of anything on the thread).
Thanks, Pacman especially. I definately would like to check out your band, or bands, sometime.
Keep on Rockin (I mean Sambaing, etc.)
Later, til June!!!!
Although you couldn't be more right in your assessment of the degree to which my lawn requires my attention, I must disagree with the first part of your statement. Threads about the general validity of music education are some of the most "positive" things to come out of forums like this, as evidenced by Brewer's last post. Without discussions such as these, we're left with endless chatter about gear - which is helpful, but you can only talk about gear for so long - and then we're left with.......what? Have you been over to the dreaded "Off Topic" lately? There's a multi page thread over there entitled "How Long Do You Keep Your Nostril Hairs?", for cryin' out loud! The thought of even reading that one - much less replying - makes the prospect of cutting the grass seem glamorous by comparison.
Before this one shuts down for good, I'd like to mention that like many of us "Jazz Snobs", I've played all kinds of music in my life, and I know a thing or two about copping Geezer's lines off vinyl, since I was doing that in the 70's when I was about 14. There was nothing wrong with it then, and there's nothing wrong with it now, if that's the music that moves you. None of us "Nazis" - not Herr Fuqua, Herr Packard, and especially not Kommendant (sp?) Turner - want to keep anybody from banging their head to their heart's content, if that's what really moves them. But if someone whose musical idol is Geezer Butler starts to slam music education as unnecessary, well....all of the members of the musical SS are going to stand and be counted, 'cause our other options include things like the Nose Hair thread.
When I teach my students, I teach them to read, I teach them to play and understand how scales and chords work, and I teach them to transcribe (I've got a little "12-step" program for that). But the thing that I'm most proud of is that I insist that each student choose the music that they want to work on each week, and the only requirement is that they love that music enough that it motivates them to work - so that I don't have to try to do that. I've taught all kinds of music in this way, and I think people SHOULD study Mettallica if they're in that headspace...funny thing is, when most people actually study it and figure out what its made of, they generally start to look for something more challenging to study before too long...it doesn't mean that they love it any less, just that it starts to become too easy and they start to look for something else. That's the way it should be with ANY music if you outgrow it.
To sum up, I think that the point of all the "Nazis" is that trying to better yourself by educating yourself can only be a good thing.
I teach bass. My students are (mostly) kids aged 10 - 15. I teach them how to read music, but I don't tell them what music they should play. Most of these kids like rock, and they apply what they learn to making rock music. I have no problem with that. I know they are developing the tools they need to make any kind of music. And that's what it's all about.
- Apr 1, 2000
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- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
Rockin' is fine by me, too
By the way, I really would like to hear some of the stuff you mentioned, as examples of what you're into.
Peace.
In respond to Chris:
I was agitated by the tone in which the discussion took place, not in the topic itself which was the object of discussion here.
Maybe I misinterpreted the posts that were presented here, I know the theory of English, but I don't get to speak it everyday, so from time to time, it's hard to determine what one's emotions are behind those posts. I guess I'll start working on that just by reading them, and responding to it.
A conversation on music-theory is quite fine, but the way in which this particular one was presented failed to do me any good. Allthough the last posts where informative to say the least.
I can only read things up to quarter notes (slowly), and have had two years of lessons, haven't had lessons last year, and I'm trying to start over again.
To Yvon: Your lawn is in the same condition as Chris? I take that from your post.
I was agitated by the tone in which the discussion took place, not in the topic itself which was the object of discussion here.
Maybe I misinterpreted the posts that were presented here, I know the theory of English, but I don't get to speak it everyday, so from time to time, it's hard to determine what one's emotions are behind those posts. I guess I'll start working on that just by reading them, and responding to it.
A conversation on music-theory is quite fine, but the way in which this particular one was presented failed to do me any good. Allthough the last posts where informative to say the least.
I can only read things up to quarter notes (slowly), and have had two years of lessons, haven't had lessons last year, and I'm trying to start over again.
To Yvon: Your lawn is in the same condition as Chris? I take that from your post.
Well - what the heck is "Theory Nazis" if not name-calling and this whole thread seems to be about putting people down for their knowledge - "ignorance is bliss"
I do agree with Chris though that these discussions are useful and certaily more useful than most.
I have also played in many styles of band - I started off playing bass by learning Led Zep tunes, went on to be in Punk bands in the UK - and this was a strictly "anti-theory" time - just get on stage and go - 3 chords, count in and rant!
I played in pop/rock bands throughout the 80s and it got less and less like "fun" and especially as the bass player, more and more boring - just follow the guitarist and play the roots, no improvising - might as well be a machine playing it!
Improvising and making up lines in Jazz is fun - I only do it because I enjoy it. And I would rather play in a small pub with good Jazz musicians, than on a huge stage or on TV for large sums of money, if I had to play the same old lines over and over again.
To me, the fun in music is the challenge and learning new stuff - just playing repetitive lines over and over is as much fun as working on a factory production line.
I play punk and I do find playing over the same chords boring, that's why I try to improvise and add in fills and licks as often as possible, as the song requires. But I do find that I play the same box shapes and patterns on the fretboard all the time, without an understanding of theory, playing "outside the box" and deviating from standard pentatonic major and minor lines is difficult when you have a long time to write- and almost impossible when improvising.
A knowledge of theory may allow you to play more complicated lines, more original lines, in a more spontaneous fashion but the idea that it allows you to crate more emotional and exciting music is merely an opinion. It depends on the player, even If you know all the chords, scales, modes etc, you still need tom know HOW to use them.
A knowledge of theory may allow you to play more complicated lines, more original lines, in a more spontaneous fashion but the idea that it allows you to crate more emotional and exciting music is merely an opinion. It depends on the player, even If you know all the chords, scales, modes etc, you still need tom know HOW to use them.
Well, my view is that the better you can express yourself, the better chance you have of expressing the emotion you intended, rather than just a random one - but this wasn't the point of the thread.
The thread was about whether theory stops you having fun or not and I think pretty definitely that the more limited you are, the less fun you have and the more you are forced to stick to the same boring stuff - the more you know the more fun you can have with music! Of course some people are more into fun than other - like I imagine "Goths" being more austere and preferring pain to fun!
The thread was about whether theory stops you having fun or not and I think pretty definitely that the more limited you are, the less fun you have and the more you are forced to stick to the same boring stuff - the more you know the more fun you can have with music! Of course some people are more into fun than other - like I imagine "Goths" being more austere and preferring pain to fun!
Phuuii, this took me an hour to plow through!
A bad start to a great thread, I might say, the headline I mean.
I have been on the bass(!) since late '70s, with a 15 years intermission(!) between '86 and 2000. I never learned theory or reading bass clef or anything in that direction, but did reeeal fine in my first round ('round '80). Now I have restarted and the other folks are pretty much younger than I. They want to tell me how they like to play, but they can't, or if they can I don't understand. And I can't communicate how I feel the music!
FRUSTRATION !!!
So, now what to do?
Don't know.....I need to find a teacher with the same approach to music as Jon Packard.....since, I guess, you're not moving to Sweden in the near future, are you?
A bad start to a great thread, I might say, the headline I mean.
I have been on the bass(!) since late '70s, with a 15 years intermission(!) between '86 and 2000. I never learned theory or reading bass clef or anything in that direction, but did reeeal fine in my first round ('round '80). Now I have restarted and the other folks are pretty much younger than I. They want to tell me how they like to play, but they can't, or if they can I don't understand. And I can't communicate how I feel the music!
FRUSTRATION !!!
So, now what to do?
Don't know.....I need to find a teacher with the same approach to music as Jon Packard.....since, I guess, you're not moving to Sweden in the near future, are you?
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,402
- 9,834
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
No, Texas
But maybe we can work out a corespondence program.... Does Sweden still have that Bikini Team? 
I definitely agree you can have more fun the more theory you know. But learning the theory itself is....IMO a bit boring, not to mention time consuming.
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,402
- 9,834
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
