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Aren't all the modes just one scale???

#21
Fergie Fulton said:
There construction is one scale, but all that explains is construction, their use can be many and give many different uses and feels depending on there application and interaction with harmony and melody.

CARPELS are in our fingers and is a 7 letter word. The letters come from the alphabet so they can be considered to be from the same source, but how these seven letters are used and how they interact has a different meaning

CLASPER/CRAPLES/PARCELS/PLACERS/RECLASP/SCALPER

are all words using the same seven letters.
But each one is a different word in its own right with its own meaning and depending how the word is used will have a different context in the sentence.

So modes just the same scale, but a different order......well that explains only there construction, like the words above modes can be used in there own right to give a different feel, colour and context to music if you learn how to use them.:cool:
Click to expand...

Who had the time to find the 7 letters that actually formed 7 different words? Is this what they do at Berklee?
 
#22
No modes are not just one scale. A scale is a SOUND. If you play C Ionian root to root, and really listen to it it sounds different than playing C Dorian.

The first problem is when someone teaches modes all from different roots. Learn the way they're constructed. Ionian is W W H W W W H, Dorian is W H W W W H W, etc. Learn them all starting with C as the root.

Second is the inanity of recommending modes as a useful way to approach diatonic harmony- that whole garbage about "use Dorian for the ii chord, Mixolydian for the V chord, and Ionian for the I chord. It's silly, pointless, and adds a layer of complexity that's totally unwarranted. Run from any teacher who espouses this.

And run from any one who says modes are primarily a way to find notes all over the neck. That may be a side benefit, but learn modes to enable you to play modal music

John
 
#23
I always find examples to be helpful. I just hope I picked songs that actually are in the uncommon modes (it's easy to find songs in the more common modes).

Moods -
  • Ionian - Major mode, the major scale - happy, attractive, up-beat. If that is the mood you want - use the major scale.
    What A Wonderful World
  • Lydian - Major mode, in parallel modes the notes are the same as the major scale with a raised 4 (#4). Has a major day dreamy mood. Much like the major scale, I seldom use it. You may love it.
    The Simpsons Theme
  • Mixolydian - Major mode, in parallel modes the notes are the same as the major scale with a flatted 7 (b7). Has a major blues or Latin sound (depending on the chord used under it) If that is the sound you are looking for Mix is your mode.
    Norwegian Wood

  • Aeolian - minor mode, in parallel modes the notes are the same as the major scale with a flatted 3, 6 & 7, i.e. the natural minor scale. As the major scale is home base to the major modes, the natural minor scale is home base to the minor modes. Aeolian aka the natural minor scale has a sad mood. I hear startled more than sad. You probably will have another name for the sound, at any rate it has a minor sound.
    Call Me
  • Dorian - minor mode, in parallel modes the notes are the same as the natural minor scale (Aeolian) with a natural 6. It's mood is an attractive minor sound. Used in minor jazz. It's my go to minor mode.
    Invalid Link Removed
  • Phrygian - minor mode, in parallel modes the notes are the same as the natural minor scale (Aeolian) with a flatted 2. Has an exotic, Middle Eastern sound or mood. Fun to play, however, I seldom use it in what I play.
    Invalid Link Removed
  • Locrian - diminished mode, in parallel modes the notes are the same as the natural minor scale with a flatted 2 and 5. Has a dark and tense mood.
    Army of Me - Bjork
Click to expand...
 
#24
DBCrocky said:
Music theory is nothing but the attempt to use some method other than trial and error to create music.There are no rules.
Click to expand...

Something wrong with that statement.
Music theory doesn't crate music,it merely tries to explain it,it tries to understand it,it tries to help communicating the music,tries to preserve music through time.
But theory doesn't create music : you can learn music for years and you might still not able to put two bars together of your own.Some people is unable to express themselves with music,but they could have tons of knowledge about it.
Humans creates music,regardless there is instruments or theory behind or not.

Of course there are rules,otherwise you could not have so many different cultural understandings about music : to make country music,you follow certain rules,to make chinese music,you follow certain rules,to make arabic music,you follow certain rules; to make rock,you follow rules too.
You are not exempt of being influenced by the music in your environment,so you are not free of rules.
But you are free to create music within this rules.

I assume the original poster is aware now after all the posts that while all the notes in the modes are the same from a single scale,the organization of the intervals of those notes is what make each mode sound unique.
Is all about the perception of the listener : can you understand major and minor scales also share the same notes,but sound so much different?
And if you can compose a song following major or minor scales,why cannot compose in those "in between" modes?
What is keeping you from doing it?
If we say the minor and major scales are black and white,the other modes are the colors in between.
 
#25
cire113 said:
To me all the modes are just ONE scale...he talked about how if he's soloing in D Dorian sometimes he will approach it as c major.. or E phyrgian..
Click to expand...

In this case the notes ARE all from the same scale. What you not seeing (or at least telling us) are the chords he's playing the modes over.

cire113 said:
I don't really hear any difference between D dorian , or e phyrgian, c major,, to me they re all the same set of notes...
Click to expand...

This is because your thinking C major and yes they all share the same notes..

Play C major. Then play C dorian not D dorian. Now do you hear the difference? You're listening for the difference in relation to the same root note. Play C phrygian. Even more different sounding. Practice the modes like this...run through all the modes on C, then run through them on D, etc.

One reason to switch from C major to C mixolydian: If your playing under a C7 chord the 7th is flat. If you play a C major scale the the 7th is not flat and may clash with the flat 7th in the chord. In the mixolydian mode, all the notes are the same as the major scale except the flat 7.
 
#27
bigboy_78 said:
Who had the time to find the 7 letters that actually formed 7 different words? Is this what they do at Berklee?
Click to expand...

LOL. Well if we are prepared to stop and think then we can come up with various ideas about modes.
For example, we can take seven notes and depending in how and how many we use to arrange them have different sounds, chords of you will.
Modes are, as far as I'm concerned, are an after thought for any player, they are just an extra tool to have if you want them.
Never ever have I came across modes being notated or written down in any playing situation I have been in over the last 40 years.
But I have talked about them and used them as a device to add, as Malcolm says " colour" to a line I have played. I have used them as a collective name to explain the idea of what is involved rather than explain it note for note.
Again this would be a pro use for it if you knew them as did the person you were discussing it with.
In the same way I can read his ideas from a sheet without him showing me them, I can change those ideas as a collective by using certain modal ideas.

Most common use for me as Blues Player is in turnarounds.
Because I have a basic understanding of modes *( and that is all I have ever had ) I know that for example in a 1-1V- V Blues in C when I go to the 1V (F) I do not need to just play a transposed Ionian, the same when I go to the V.
No one ever writes such things, but I know I can do more than just move a box shape around whether it be a dom7 in three different positions, or a single modal idea in three different positions.

All this means is that in the 1-1V-V walking line,when the song moves from the V to the 1V you can stay on the V ( G) and walk down it though the 1V (F) without making the F the root of the 1V chord.

So it can be on the V of the song at the turnaround
G B D E F and using that F at the top rather than a root (the 7 of G7) walk back down
E D B to the C
Rather than being
G B D E F A G D to the C it can flow
G B D E F E D B to the C


Or rather than going to the V go to the ii and miss out that V to the 1V turnaround completely as a root orientated movement.

Again at the V of the song rather than going
G B D E F A G D to the C or
G B D E F E D B to the C
You can go to the ii (D) and play
D E F F# G F E D back to the C

So a simple Blues structure of 1-1V-V will have elements of modal harmony if you care to look.....or know where to look......if you want to.

p.s.
finding seven anagrams was easy.... one search under "seven letter anagrams" took seconds.....again it's about known what your doing rather than wasting time by not.:)
 
#28
That is correct
In this point in time ,MODES are simply tools we use to apply to contemporary music.
Is not really we are making any modal music,after all.
Is only jazz and rock and roll,but i like it.
He he
 
#31
Originally Posted by onosson
OK this needs to get added to the TalkBass smilies!
Click to expand...

Until that happens ---- For those wanting
popcorn.gif
or most any smiley icon.

Right click the image. Click Properties. Save the property address. Paste it to a word processor page. Go get it when ever you want it and copy/paste the address between
B] these two img codes[B]


Have fun.
 
#33
ACalbass said:
That is correct
In this point in time ,MODES are simply tools we use to apply to contemporary music.
Is not really we are making any modal music,after all.
Is only jazz and rock and roll,but i like it.
He he
Click to expand...

an important distinction to keep in mind, thank you.
modes as they are employed in contemporary western music are more accurately defined as "serial scales" of a parent scale. "mode" in the true sense of the word (as used in arab, turkish, indian, and medieval european music) implies a tonal hierarchy and in some cases specific rules of composition.
 
#34
cire113 said:
To me all the modes are just ONE scale...

I was watching a video lesson with Damien Ersikine and he talked about how if he's soloing in D Dorian sometimes he will approach it as c major.. or E phyrgian..

Im not sure exactly why people do this.??.

TO me they are all the same set of notes etc... Doesn't this just make it more confusing?

I guess if you are stuck on root motion of scales its good to see it differently but when i solo i play and land on any note really...

I don't really hear any difference between D dorian , or e phyrgian, c major,, to me they re all the same set of notes...
Click to expand...

Go to a piano and play a Cmaj 7 in your left hand and play a Locrian scale in your right. If you don't hear a difference then something's wrong.
 
#35
Here's what Joe Satriani has to say on this (the second and third paragraphs address the OP's specific question):

Though thinking of a mode as being the same as some other major scale is a very useful learning device, it is only when one fully understands and internalizes the sound of each mode's intervallic structure that one will master the modal concept.

When learning the seven fundamental modes, it definitely helps to think of each mode as simply being a different orientation of its parent major scale. Ultimately, however, it's better to break away from this relative or associative way of thinking and look at each individual mode as being its own harmonic entity.

To convey the sound of a mode to the listener, it's not enough to just play the notes in a particular position on the fretboard; the mode's root note or tonal center (the first note of the mode) must be clearly established in the listener's ear. For example, if you're improvising in the B Phrygian mode (B C D E F# G A), the notes need to be heard in the context of a B tonal center. One way to ensure that you're conveying the intended B Phrygian modality is to play the melody notes over a B bass note or some kind of B chord that contains notes that fall within the mode, such as B5, Bm, Bm7, Bsus4, B7sus4 or B7b9sus4.

In terms of modal study, the modes only have meaning when they're addressed and understood as entities unto themselves, not as permutations of any "parent" scale. Whatever the root note of a particular mode may be - for example, B in the B Phrygian mode - that root note must be made clear to the listener in order for the unique harmonic texture of a given mode to be experienced by the listener. It is only when a mode is heard against a particular root note or tonal center that its quality can be understood.

Another thing that helps to establish a mode's tonal center is to emphasize the root note in the melody you're composing or improvising. This can be particularly challenging if there's no accompaniment. In the example given above, the musical color of B Phrygian would need to be clearly communicated to the listener to avoid any harmonic ambiguity. The most important note would be B, the root note, and all of the other notes in the mode should surround and relate to that note. If you were to forever rely on the musical crutch of thinking "G major", you'd prevent yourself from truly expressing yourself in a musically convincing and artistic way in the B Phrygian mode.

The best way to really get to know the structure and sound of all seven fundamental modes is to compare them back-to-back in the same (or parallel) key, beginning each mode on the same root note (G Ionian, then G Dorian, then G Phrygian, etc.). By playing and listening to the different modes this way, as opposed to practicing them only in their theoretically relative tonal centers (G Ionian, then A Dorian, then B Phrygian, etc.), one can easily analyze and appreciate the differences and similarities in their intervallic structures and harmonic colors.
Click to expand...

Also, a beginner might want to take a look at this thread:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/music-theory-book-free-download-790165/

It provides a link to a free ebook, recommended by Bassybill. I think it really does clear up a lot of stuff about modes.
 
#36
Two points...,

1 - I think part of the confusion is that most often modes are explained in this context...

Take the notes of Cmajor, using those notes start on D and you're playing dorian; start on E and you're playing phrygian etc.

So they try that and it seems like much ado about nothing.

But if you explain it this way...,

Start with C major, that's Ionian.

Now flat the 7th (the B becomes Bb), play the C scale that way listen to how that Bb changes the character of the C scale. That's mixolydian.

Now back to C major or Ionian, play that. Now change the F to F#. Play that, listen to the way that F# sounds in this context, listen how that changes the character of the C scale. That's lydian.

etc.

Wouldn't that give a better understanding of what modes are about?

2nd point... Oh shoot, I forgot my 2nd point.
 
#37
The above post by Champbassist is how I look at modes. Modes don't mean anything outside of some established harmonic underpinning. It's just a collection of the same notes that start from different points.

If I, as the bassplayer vamps on some A minor groove, and a guitarist is improvising on the C major scale, it doesn't matter what order he plays those notes. Whether he starts on the E and plays a phrygian pattern or starts on B and plays a locrian pattern, the whole vibe of the improvisation is gonna sound Aeolian, because I'm establishing the harmonic center. Not the guitarist. He's just playing notes that fit over the A minor vamp. And no matter what "mode" he plays, it's still all the same notes.

The typical way people address the harmonic underpinning problem is to start the mode from a specific note, as mentioned in the above post and that's ok. But if you just play what you want from any modal pattern, the underlying harmony will dictate the actual mode. You won't be able do it by starting on one note or another, unless you are playing strictly by yourself and what fun is that? So I guess the bottom line is that modes are generally about the harmony that supports them.

Actually, what mode I play during a solo is typically dictated by where on the fretboard I want to play i.e., do I wanna play high up or low down or where I feel like outlining the chords. Then I just play the modal pattern that fits what I want to hear so that it lays easily in my hands. The harmony that goes along with whatever tune I'm playing will dictate the mode that is being played at the time.

For me, it's no more complicated than that. But obviously, there are many ways to approach the issue of modes.
 
#40
I've always thought the way modes are defined: "play C major from D to D, that's Dorian..." as the "backward" way to get to modes. It's merely a definition. The "forward" way to get to modes is what I memorized: Dorian is the major scale with a flatted 7 and 3; Aeolian is major scale with flatted 7, 3, and 6; Mixolydian is major scale with flatted 7. This is easier to me than trying to figure out, when someone says this is F Lydian: ok, so F is the 4th of C, so it's C major from F to F. MUCH easier to just think: ok, it's F major with a sharp 4. Easier and it makes the harmonic use of modes readily apparent because you're thinking of a tonal center in F, not in C and trying to transpose.
 

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