ASH vs. ALDER - PART II

[Joebone]

Ummm.. theonly variable is the body.

The neck, pickups, strings, etc. were all the same (not same model - identical).
.

Ummm...what is your confidence level concerning the following variables?

** Each body was generally representative of the characteristics associated with ash/alder

** All other components did not interact with with each body in some way that would neutralize the characteristics associated with ash or alder - and this could make a big difference, especially in the way of string selection, neck interaction with the body, and pickup selection.

** All components were not assembled --nor the set-up performed -- in a way that might skew the result

** Most importantly, the player's performance did not skew the result...and for me, this is the key one. Even if the tester did not intend for each sample to be played in way that might skew the result, it could certainly happen, even on a subconscious level. Hence No-Static's point about the tester knowing which axe he is playing.

All things considered, I'd not draw firm conclusions from this test. Entertaining and somewhat informative, but hardly scientific.

 

[prd004]

If this is truly the case, I feel sorry as hell for any schmuck who paid more for their MIM Fender than I paid for my Squier, and it really helps me understand why my Squier not only holds it's own against most MIM Fenders I've A/B'd it with, it flat-out outperforms about half of them..

I fully retract my statement that your post does not add to the thread, and I apologize for calling you a troll.

Apology accepted.

Fender basses (and guitars) have a long history of being hit and miss items. Aside from the custom shop pieces, they are such production line instruments, assembled so rapidly, by so many different workers, there is very little individual quality controll. It's very common to find a MIM jazz that sounds great right next to a MIA jazz that underwhelms. There are good, bad, and great pieces being churned out all the time, Squier, MIM, MIA. Generally speaking the MIA have better components than the MIM, which have better components than the Squires etc. The biggest difference being the hardware and pickups. But these are general statements the fact that you found a Squier that sounds better than a MIM is not that big of an un-heard-of anomaly. The two biggest variables in similar instruments are the pickups and wood (shocking development)! The builder has no controll over how resonant the individual pieces of wood will be, and pickup windings/response/growl/tone can change drastically from unit to unit depending on the level of precision and quality controll.

Even in the pre-CBS vintage Fender heyday, there were big differences from instrument to instrument. As recently as fiftten-twenty years ago vintage enthusiests would pass on a rare and valuable instrument seeking another one that had more "Magic". Some still do, but as they get older and older, become more rare and harder to find, it becomes much more difficult to do that.

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

You know what, Dan?

I'm really disappointed in you. At first I thought you really wanted to enter into these experiments with an open mind an a attitude of discovery.

Each one of your successive comments, and your refusal to engage a single one of my and others' arguments leads me to believe it is you who have formed a strong opinion that is resistant to discussion, debate, and to the spirit of discovery.

How come Mongo's comments are 'arguing on the internet' and yours aren't?

How come 'we' are 'the naysayers', and you are, well, what? We don't have a name yet for those that disagree with your opinions, because no one else on this thread thought it would be useful to lump you all together and hang a name on you.

You've consistently tried to undermine any opinions opposite to yours by pre-empting them with comments that are meant to ridicule what you assume will be our arguments. It's a nasty and low debating technique and it's won you some thread camp followers but it's contributed nothing to this thread but rancour.

I also don't see you so quick to crow about the results of this second test, either. Why not. Hint: maybe because it doesn't prove your point?

I'm not "crowing" about the second test because YOU guys aren't "crowing" about it. I posted the results, and there wasn't much said in response. Why? Because you tonewood folks were comfortable with the outcome. There were no complaints of the test being "flawed" or "inconclusive", etc.

This isn't a competition to me. The second test results went in favor of the tonewood folks (although by a VERY narrow margin). I couldn't have cared less. Whatever. It was fun, and educational.

I think both these tests support my original claim: That body wood DOES impact tone, but in a very very subtle way. Other factors have much more impact.

Lighten up, dude.

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Ummm...what is your confidence level concerning the following variables?

** Each body was generally representative of the characteristics associated with ash/alder

** All other components did not interact with with each body in some way that would neutralize the characteristics associated with ash or alder - and this could make a big difference, especially in the way of string selection, neck interaction with the body, and pickup selection.

** All components were not assembled --nor the set-up performed -- in a way that might skew the result

** Most importantly, the player's performance did not skew the result...and for me, this is the key one. Even if the tester did not intend for each sample to be played in way that might skew the result, it could certainly happen, even on a subconscious level. Hence No-Static's point about the tester knowing which axe he is playing.

All things considered, I'd not draw firm conclusions from this test. Entertaining and somewhat informative, but hardly scientific.

It is posts like this that make me sratch my head.

These types of arguments are self-defeating. If the only way to truly bring out the tone differences between body woods is to conduct the experiment at a NASA facility, with dozens of scientists in lab coats, with hundreds of Ash & Alder bodies and hundreds of human test subjects to listen to recordings....doesn't that indicate that this "tonewood" thing is much more subtle and complicated than conventional wisdom leads us to believe?

By your logic, none of us should pay any attention to what body wood we choose, except for purely cosmetic reasons.

See my point?

 

[pasco jacorius]

Let's hear what Mike has to say about it (at 5:20 he starts to talk about wood and tone)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-yWigPsyB8

Second video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQy4jyf-Yps

 

[Daede]

I took "Wood gives the instrument it's voice, but that voice is as unpredictable as yours or mine" away from those videos.

 

[Joebone]

It is posts like this that make me sratch my head.

These types of arguments are self-defeating. If the only way to truly bring out the tone differences between body woods is to conduct the experiment at a NASA facility, with dozens of scientists in lab coats, with hundreds of Ash & Alder bodies and hundreds of human test subjects to listen to recordings....doesn't that indicate that this "tonewood" thing is much more subtle and complicated than conventional wisdom leads us to believe?

By your logic, none of us should pay any attention to what body wood we choose, except for purely cosmetic reasons.

See my point?

Actually, at this point, I'm not quite sure what your point is!

Don't get me wrong - I think what you've done is very cool. And if your ultimate point is that the body-wood distinction is subtle, I'm down with that.

What makes me uncomfortable is the extent to which this kind of test is paraded to back categorical, absolutist statements like "body wood makes no difference." And to be fair, I don't think that's quite what you are saying.

But for folks with a background in science or law or any discipline that analyzes decision-making, in which categorical statements or assertions of fact are only hypothetical until proven to a high degree of confidence (and setting the standard for that degree of confidence is a zoo of its own), it's hard not to note issues associated with testing procedures. Folks who basically test things for a living are just like that...and I confess to being one of them. Guilty as charged.

That said, I do thank you for doing what you're doing with these listening tests. You should be proud of stimulating some discussion and challenging folks to listen and to think.

 

[Chris K]

Allow me...

I'll post first, look at the revelation later.
Clip A: alder B: ash C: alder again
Difference in Ramble On: first take is alder, second take is ash.

I have a J 5 custom on order, alder body. The correct choice according to what I think I heard...
And now I´ll rush back to post 75.

Thanks Dan, great job!

EDIT: 80% score... satisfies me... thanks again...

 

[One Drop]

Ummm...what is your confidence level concerning the following variables?

** Each body was generally representative of the characteristics associated with ash/alder

** All other components did not interact with with each body in some way that would neutralize the characteristics associated with ash or alder - and this could make a big difference, especially in the way of string selection, neck interaction with the body, and pickup selection.

** All components were not assembled --nor the set-up performed -- in a way that might skew the result

** Most importantly, the player's performance did not skew the result...and for me, this is the key one. Even if the tester did not intend for each sample to be played in way that might skew the result, it could certainly happen, even on a subconscious level. Hence No-Static's point about the tester knowing which axe he is playing.

All things considered, I'd not draw firm conclusions from this test. Entertaining and somewhat informative, but hardly scientific.

Very good points all, and extremely well elucidated, that in addition to the poor methodology used invalidate any results obtained. No, these aren't nit-picking either, they are fundamental.

You know, I tried to pull this back a bit and to make the debate itself a little more practically based in a previous post when I described how even less extreme positions (some shared by Dan) might be useful to a luthier, but no one seems interested. There does seem to be some consensus that wood matters, and that it is only the degree that is being discussed, but maybe positions are now too entrenched and the point has been missed after all the name calling, ruffled feathers, and hurt feelings. Pity, really.

 

[Daede]

Very good points all, and extremely well elucidated, that in addition to the poor methodology used invalidate any results obtained. No, these aren't nit-picking either, they are fundamental.

If any of these minute factors can invalidate the results of the experiment, then Dan's original assessments that "wood matters, but not as much as a lot of people here would claim" and "your preconceived notion of what you're hearing has as much to bear on the subject as your ears do" just sit there and scream "I was right all along" at the top of their lungs.

You know, I tried to pull this back a bit and to make the debate itself a little more practically based in a previous post when I described how even less extreme positions (some shared by Dan) might be useful to a luthier, but no one seems interested. There does seem to be some consensus that wood matters, and that it is only the degree that is being discussed, but maybe positions are now too entrenched and the point has been missed after all the name calling, ruffled feathers, and hurt feelings. Pity, really.

Not so much, IMO. I've learned a tremendous amount from these threads, and they've got me thinking in some pretty unconventional directions, as well as curious to hear a pickup screwed to as many different surfaces -- organic or otherwise -- as possible.

 

[One Drop]

I think both these tests support my original claim: That body wood DOES impact tone, but in a very very subtle way. Other factors have much more impact.

Lighten up, dude.

If that is your position, then I guess we are in 100% agreement. Maybe we differ in that I think the effect is subtle but enough to be worth considering when building a bass and you don't, so be it.

And, no, I won't lighten up, DAN. I am who I am and I never insulted you or anyone else on this thread. I never resorted to name-calling and I tried to make my arguments respectful and relevant, in spite of a few attempt by you and others to provoke.

BTW The reason they call these questions 'cans of worms' is usually for a good reason in case anyone forgot...

 

[Matt Dean]

Well, I'm late to the party, but I did the experiment and voted in my mind. I heard the differences; heard C=B and could hear the difference in the chorus in the zep tune. But, I got the woods wrong.

I agree with the position that the differences are very small, probably smaller than other variables that will impact tone to a greater degree.

I think these kinds of listening experiments are kind of fun to participate in, but because our brains are to a certain degree uniquely different, we all hear things differently.

I recently did a cable hearing test on the FX forum comparing an expensive/high end cable with some less expensive cables and everyone got it wrong.

 

[SharkUSMC]

Here's a massively expensive fantasy of an experiment: give random 100 bassists alder basses with a black finish, 100 bassists ash basses with a black finish, and just for fun 100 bassists alder basses with a sunburst. 100 control group bassists get nothing. See which group gets more gigs and makes more money over a ten-year period, and see if the differences are statistically significant. Money and gigs - that would be a REAL difference.

And as long as this is not realistic anyway, let's also see which gets the most groupies. That would be a REAL REAL difference.

I want a pink bass.... Is there a group that gets those free?

 

[Daede]

If that is your position, then I guess we are in 100% agreement. Maybe we differ in that I think the effect is subtle but enough to be worth considering when building a bass and you don't, so be it.

And, no, I won't lighten up, DAN. I am who I am and I never insulted you or anyone else on this thread. I never resorted to name-calling and I tried to make my arguments respectful and relevant, in spite of a few attempt by you and others to provoke.

In my opinion, Dan hasn't really tried to provoke any kind of response out of anyone, other than to say (I paraphrase here) "Okay, you guys took some really low shots at me in the last thread, but now that this one is slightly in your favor (and the test is marginally more balanced, albeit less 'controlled'), none of you have anything to say". And, you have to admit that (especially in the first thread) MANY of the pro-TW arguments have come across sounding like religious campaigns, saying things like "Well, I can hear it, so you are wrong", "I know it to be true because I believe it", "Leo Fender said it so THAT IS HOW IT IS" (my personal favorite, and very "God said so, so DO IT or I'll SPANK YOU"-ish), and "You don't even play bass, so obviously you can't hear it"...
Now, you say Dan has been antagonistic, provocative, and has had a 'call you out' attitude towards those who disagree with him. I say "Good for him". He was immediately met with contempt and ridicule for a simple social experiment that taught us all a LOT, regardless of whether a single person wants to admit it or not. I've seen a LOT more mud-slinging from the 'pro-TW' camp than I have from the other side.

BTW The reason they call these questions 'cans of worms' is usually for a good reason in case anyone forgot...

The only thing I'm worried about is the thread being closed over there being no resolution in sight.

If we can't sit here and discuss tonewoods, even in a somewhat heated manner, then what's the point? There are so many things on these forums we CAN'T talk about for fear of someone getting offended... ...I just don't want to see another limitation on what we can and cannot talk about, because at that point we're gonna be stuck with "My bass is pretty", "Mine is pretty too", "Anybody know who has the best deal on Ibanez SR500's?" and "I think the theme you used with vBulletin is awesome"...

 

[Batmensch]

Well said, Daede.

 

[One Drop]

Well said, Daede.

Yes, very cool posts, and I think you're right that Dan hasn't been provocative intentionally. I sort of lumped both threads together, the first left a nasty taste that leached into my perception of this one.

I hope I haven't hurt anyone's feelings in this thread, it was never my intention.

 

[Daede]

I hope I haven't hurt anyone's feelings in this thread, it was never my intention.

Sure haven't hurt mine I wear a thick skin when I go internetting. I also consider semi-heated debate to be something of a pasttime

All of your posts have been very well thought out, and have either asked very important questions or debunked flawed reasoning in ideas posed by others.

These two threads (the necks thread has a totally different vibe to it) have been absolutely awesome, and I hope to see more like them pop up. I understand so much more now about tonewoods than I did when we started. As a result, I'm now very interested in hearing as many different material combinations as I can think of.

I also understand a lot more about the people I've interacted with on these threads than I did when we started. A couple of interactions have been real eye-openers for me, and I now look at a couple of you in a very different light than I did before.



To me, threads like this are the very reason we seek out community among like-minded enthusiasts. When threads like this happen, no matter how heated they get, and no matter how circular the arguments seem to get, the people involved begin to feed off the ideas of one another. Sometimes it's a direct revelation, sometimes it happens subconsciously, but it's situations like these that allow us to rapidly expand our realm of consciousness, possibility, and acceptability on any given subject.

 

[BadJazz]

MANY of the pro-TW arguments have come across sounding like religious campaigns, saying things like "Well, I can hear it, so you are wrong", "I know it to be true because I believe it", "Leo Fender said it so THAT IS HOW IT IS" (my personal favorite, and very "God said so, so DO IT or I'll SPANK YOU"-ish), and "You don't even play bass, so obviously you can't hear it"...

"Faith-based luthiery."

Same goes for most threads involving $2,000 power cables, directional speaker cable, power conditioners, tone rocks, M*****r cables, etc. The esoterica reaches the event horizon and all rational thought is sucked inward and crushed. I think we're through the looking glass on this topic.

What matters most in a bass performance? Tone? Technique? I would suggest note selection. First and foremost, be all end all. The right note works, not matter how many or how few, for any musical application. Second would be the delivery of the notes. Be it fingerstyle, slap, pick, what have you. Consistency from measure to measure.

The wood in the bass has zero to do with it up to this point. The playability, yes. The wood, no. Throw in amp selection, cab(s), pickups, strings, frets, no frets, cables, effects, DI's, mics, PA support, the venue/studio... the myriad variables that affect any real world situation. I'd put tonewood selection way, way down the list.

 

[cassius987]

Dan, thanks for these threads about wood's impact on tone, they have been interesting and informative in a number of ways.

The fact that you somehow riled the feathers of a huge portion of the forum is just a hilarious icing on the cake.

 

[Daede]

The wood in the bass has zero to do with it up to this point. The playability, yes. The wood, no. Throw in amp selection, cab(s), pickups, strings, frets, no frets, cables, effects, DI's, mics, PA support, the venue/studio... the myriad variables that affect any real world situation. I'd put tonewood selection way, way down the list.

Like I said, I'm now practically DYING to try as many different material combinations as I can, just to see what all I come up with.

...Invent a new, truly unique sound, and the world will remember you for it (just ask Bob Moog )...