ash vs mahogany

[bassbenj]

It's already been stated on TB that folks like Sadowsky and Mike Tobias only offer tonewood as a scam.

Sure. People like roger cranking out over 7000 instruments can't really believe in tonewood. To big business like that it's all a sales pitch scam because the musicians they sell to believe in it!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Until somebody performs a true blind test as Gorn suggests, it's all opinion and no proveable fact either way, though the idea that amplified strings are part of a system of materials acting in concert, resulting in what we call Tone, is hard to refute. That variation in the parts of this system will affect string vibration IS irrefutable, the average human ear being able to hear that variation is what's left to question. Who wants to volunteer to get the hundred basses, and a robot to pluck them? Finding absolutely identical strings might be a challenge, probably better an electronically induced tone that never touches the strings, like an e-bow. Science!

Who said anything about the average human ear? That may explain some of the confusion... though of course it might not.

There has been no caveat that I can recall that wood doesn't matter to the average human ear. Hell, music doesn't matter to the average human ear.

 

[Brad Johnson]

It seems there is rarely a distinction made between wood making a difference to tone and wood making a predictable difference to tone. They are not the same thing. There's also a difference between what is heard listening back to a recording and what is heard when playing a bass. I have little doubt that my ear would be less sensitive when not coupled with the tactile aspects of playing a bass. The responsiveness of a bass (when I'm playing it) affects how I play - and how much I enjoy playing a bass. For me it's not so much about wood type, it's about the specific bass. From my experience the wood makes a difference, but I've also found it difficult to reliably predict the finer aspects of tone (including evenness from note to note) based on wood type. For this reason I no longer order basses to spec - I want to play the bass first.

Agreed. I don't think that there is a way to flawlessly predict the behavior of a "new to you" bass. I do however think that noticing trends can help decrease the odds of a surprise.

Much of what you mentioned, the physical aspects of the playing experience are completely ignored by many not trying to prove a point

I have ordered basses spec'd similarly to others from the same builder that I have played. Batting 1.000 so far.

 

[Brad Johnson]

ok, I don't want to dive into the tonewood debate, I like certain woods for my own reasons

however

how stable would a 4 piece laminate ash neck through be? I am thinking of getting one

Depends on who's building it. Structural quality is not solely determined by a method. Execution matters too.

 

[MrLenny1]

I think the neck makes a difference on the tone.
I.E. Maple neck Jazz vs a Zon bass IMHO.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Does the construction of an acoustic bass have an effect on how the string vibrates?

Does the construction of an acoustic bass guitar have an effect on how the string vibrates?

Does the construction of an electric bass guitar have an effect on how the string vibrates?

I'm not sure what you mean by construction. Material used? Design? Technique? Quality?

 

[Brad Johnson]

I'm not sure what you mean by construction. Material used? Design? Technique? Quality?

While all of that can vary in importance as factors in creating tone, let's just go with what it's built with and how.

Either it can matter or it can't. If it can...

 

[M.R. Ogle]

I posted this back in 2014, but I think I'll post it again here:


The "sound chain" of an electric bass or guitar is a largely subtractive one.


FIRST: It starts (obviously) with the strings. Strings are King. They provide 100% of the available frequencies to any instrument.


NEXT: The structure you tie them to (the wood, the neck, the hardware) subtract out a certain few of those string frequencies through natural damping and physics.


THEN: The pickups get to "transduce" whatever frequencies are left over. Pickups CAN'T add frequencies that aren’t there.


The trick is (IMHO) to find the combination of which pickups have the resonant “hump” which aesthetically "compliments" those remaining frequencies. Position, type, windings, construction, all important, so choose wisely. Just like you’d choose a microphone for your singer to compliment their particular voice.



Active electronics can boost or cut frequencies, of course. But they’re still in the signal chain AFTER the pickups, so they still only get to cut/boost whatever frequencies are left.



Strings…structure (wood) …THEN pickups and electronics. This is the heierarchy I follow.

 

[Apolicious]

I posted this back in 2014, but I think I'll post it again here:


The "sound chain" of an electric bass or guitar is a largely subtractive one.


FIRST: It starts (obviously) with the strings. Strings are King. They provide 100% of the available frequencies to any instrument.


NEXT: The structure you tie them to (the wood, the neck, the hardware) subtract out a certain few of those string frequencies through natural damping and physics.


THEN: The pickups get to "transduce" whatever frequencies are left over. Pickups CAN'T add frequencies that aren’t there.


The trick is (IMHO) to find the combination of which pickups have the resonant “hump” which aesthetically "compliments" those remaining frequencies. Position, type, windings, construction, all important, so choose wisely. Just like you’d choose a microphone for your singer to compliment their particular voice.



Active electronics can boost or cut frequencies, of course. But they’re still in the signal chain AFTER the pickups, so they still only get to cut/boost whatever frequencies are left.



Strings…structure (wood) …THEN pickups and electronics. This is the heierarchy I follow.

 

[Jloch86]

This video and this guy's channel has all the information you'll ever need about guitar repair and "tone wood"

 

[Apolicious]

This video and this guy's channel has all the information you'll ever need about guitar repair and "tone wood"

I'm only about 5 minutes into this, but there are already so, so many errors, or just lame excuses.

• "I'm not going to be talking about the physics of tonewood." THEN YOUR ARGUMENT IS ALREADY MOOT. TONE = SOUNDWAVES = PHYSICS. THIS CANNOT BE REMOVED FROM THE CONVERSATION.
• "It's all based on species, which in of itself should tell you it's a fallacy." because yes, all species are identical living things. must be why Will and his dog have such a "special" relationship.
• plywood is not a wood. it's plywood. you cannot chop down a plywood tree. and nobody brags about their instruments being made out of plywood. that is literally a joke.
• guitar manufacturers want to make money? well color me stupid, all this time I thought they were doing it for charity.
• I have literally never once heard the phrase "instrument quality poplar." it's a cheap wood, and that is a strawman argument.
• "you can buy it for $100 on youtube - or eBay or something." you, sir, are drunk.
• "rosewood is not cheap, but since you're only using it on a fretboard, it is kinda cheap." duh. nobody charges extra for a rosewood fretboard. I've seen $25 ukuleles made out of "NATO" with rosewood fretboards.
• "but you're gonna have to saw 'em and all that." and, we all know, labor is free.
• I
• Just
• Can't
• Go
• On

I tried. I really tried. but this guy is just being contrarian on purpose. yes, some woods are more expensive due to "taxes or tariffs or other ********." we do that for complicated economic reasons, and so we don't end up with another brazilian rosewood situation. or the ongoing ebony situation. or the upcoming sitka spruce situation.

I genuinely tried to watch this, but the longer it goes on, all I can think of is this;

 

[Jloch86]

I'm only about 5 minutes into this, but there are already so, so many errors, or just lame excuses.

• "I'm not going to be talking about the physics of tonewood." THEN YOUR ARGUMENT IS ALREADY MOOT. TONE = SOUNDWAVES = PHYSICS. THIS CANNOT BE REMOVED FROM THE CONVERSATION.
• "It's all based on species, which in of itself should tell you it's a fallacy." because yes, all species are identical living things. must be why Will and his dog have such a "special" relationship.
• plywood is not a wood. it's plywood. you cannot chop down a plywood tree. and nobody brags about their instruments being made out of plywood. that is literally a joke.
• guitar manufacturers want to make money? well color me stupid, all this time I thought they were doing it for charity.
• I have literally never once heard the phrase "instrument quality poplar." it's a cheap wood, and that is a strawman argument.
• "you can buy it for $100 on youtube - or eBay or something." you, sir, are drunk.
• "rosewood is not cheap, but since you're only using it on a fretboard, it is kinda cheap." duh. nobody charges extra for a rosewood fretboard. I've seen $25 ukuleles made out of "NATO" with rosewood fretboards.
• "but you're gonna have to saw 'em and all that." and, we all know, labor is free.
• I
• Just
• Can't
• Go
• On

I tried. I really tried. but this guy is just being contrarian on purpose. yes, some woods are more expensive due to "taxes or tariffs or other ********." we do that for complicated economic reasons, and so we don't end up with another brazilian rosewood situation. or the ongoing ebony situation. or the upcoming sitka spruce situation.

I genuinely tried to watch this, but the longer it goes on, all I can think of is this;

Well I'm sure his 62,000 subscribers looking for advice similar to what the OP is looking for would love for you to set him straight by having a discussion with him.

 

[Gorn]

Well I'm sure his 62,000 subscribers looking for advice similar to what the OP is looking for would love for you to set him straight by having a discussion with him.

Pewdiepie has 50,000,000 subscribers. He's still an idiot.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Well I'm sure his 62,000 subscribers looking for advice similar to what the OP is looking for would love for you to set him straight by having a discussion with him.

Seriously?

 

[bearfoot]

Owned and played a sr505 (5 string version of 500) and love it. People are right in saying the stain is weak and goes straight through to the wood. Mine definitely has that worn in look but I love it that way n wouldn't change it. All depends what your going for. As far as I'm aware the 600 keeps the wood stain better but its all down to you. Tone wise they're both very similar

Yeah I have the same body on the 506. I've thought about sanding the stain off, using a little grain filler, and a clear coat, but, I'm too busy playing it....

I'm only about 5 minutes into this, but there are already so, so many errors, or just lame excuses.

• "I'm not going to be talking about the physics of tonewood." THEN YOUR ARGUMENT IS ALREADY MOOT. TONE = SOUNDWAVES = PHYSICS. THIS CANNOT BE REMOVED FROM THE CONVERSATION.
• "It's all based on species, which in of itself should tell you it's a fallacy." because yes, all species are identical living things. must be why Will and his dog have such a "special" relationship.
• plywood is not a wood. it's plywood. you cannot chop down a plywood tree. and nobody brags about their instruments being made out of plywood. that is literally a joke.
• guitar manufacturers want to make money? well color me stupid, all this time I thought they were doing it for charity.
• I have literally never once heard the phrase "instrument quality poplar." it's a cheap wood, and that is a strawman argument.
• "you can buy it for $100 on youtube - or eBay or something." you, sir, are drunk.
• "rosewood is not cheap, but since you're only using it on a fretboard, it is kinda cheap." duh. nobody charges extra for a rosewood fretboard. I've seen $25 ukuleles made out of "NATO" with rosewood fretboards.
• "but you're gonna have to saw 'em and all that." and, we all know, labor is free.
• I
• Just
• Can't
• Go
• On

I tried. I really tried. but this guy is just being contrarian on purpose. yes, some woods are more expensive due to "taxes or tariffs or other ********." we do that for complicated economic reasons, and so we don't end up with another brazilian rosewood situation. or the ongoing ebony situation. or the upcoming sitka spruce situation.

I happen to have watched that last night also, I got all the way through it. I understand your objections, the guy has some chips on his shoulder, claims to be apolitical, but makes political attacks. I can't blame you for switching off.
However, he does make a lot of good points, and it was worth it to me to give a listen with the requisite grain of salt. To respond to your points:
1. He doesn't go into physics because he does this in another video, which I haven't gotten through yet, but does not seem to be BS. His conclusions may be wrong, but that does not invalidate the process.
2. I'm not sure what he meant by that either. I think it's just the beginning of his repeating point that the most marketed solidbody tonewood is the cheapest species of the day, taking into account tool wear.
3. no one bragging about plywood instruments does not affect the points being made
4. yeah, he belabors that point , and actually complains that he "has to charge more" in affluent neighborhoods as a contractor, because people are stupid, his other belabored point.
5. I don't think that's a strawman, it's another example that underscores his argument.
6. it's just another example that shows a Gibson Les Paul and an SX Les Paul are much closer kin than most customers want to know

Anyway, calling people stupid is a proven way to invalidate one's argument, even if there is truth to it. Check out "Zachary guitars" or "ZOG" if you want to see the most extreme example of that.
But I think another good point is comparing Fenders to model T's, that repeating design flaws because it's "traditional" is somewhat unique to musical instruments. Nobody says Henry Ford got it all right the first time, and consensus does not in itself prove anything. If it did, we'd still have the Sun orbiting the Earth in our minds.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I think I may have missed him calling some stupid. And people who may not know any better may follow anything that seems to make sense or reinforces what they want to believe. I watched a full 15 minutes of it the shotgun approach was exhausting. Wrong as heck too IME but he and his followers are welcome to it.

 

[AndreasR]

The sound produced in an electric instrument is indeed based on subtractions as was posted earlier. The strings vibrate, the wood can absorb some of these, the pickups pick up the vibrations at a specific location, etc.

However the (in my opinion) mistake made here is that the frequencies and vibrations absorbed by the wood are bother discernable by the human ear and predictable in nature. This would mean that every piece of wood of a species acts exactly the same, and that the construction of every electric bass relies on building upon the subtraction caused by wood.

In my opinion the oposite is true. First of all, no piece of wood is the same, just like no human arm is exactly the same as another. Secondly, a well built electric bass is constructed in a way to minimize the absorbtion of vibration. As such any great bass would be great regardless of the wood used, but it's merits would be based on its construction.

In other words, wood species mostly matters if your bass isn't that great, and even then it isn't predictable.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The sound produced in an electric instrument is indeed based on subtractions as was posted earlier. The strings vibrate, the wood can absorb some of these, the pickups pick up the vibrations at a specific location, etc.

However the (in my opinion) mistake made here is that the frequencies and vibrations absorbed by the wood are bother discernable by the human ear and predictable in nature. This would mean that every piece of wood of a species acts exactly the same, and that the construction of every electric bass relies on building upon the subtraction caused by wood.

How did you extrapolate your second thought from the first one? I don't see a connection.

That assumes that all wood of a species would be identical. Who's making that contention?

In my opinion the oposite is true. First of all, no piece of wood is the same, just like no human arm is exactly the same as another. Secondly, a well built electric bass is constructed in a way to minimize the absorbtion of vibration. As such any great bass would be great regardless of the wood used, but it's merits would be based on its construction.

In other words, wood species mostly matters if your bass isn't that great, and even then it isn't predictable.

Basses being made to minimize the absorption of vibrations? Example please? I can't recall that being a goal of any of the luthiers that I've talked to.

 

[AndreasR]

Properly transfering as much vibrational energy as possible is the entire basis of any string instrument. Be it acoustic or electric.

I shouldn't even have to explain this.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

At some point in every tonewood debate (they are legion on TB), the phrase "in a true blind test, nobody could tell the difference". Is there such a blind test out there, conducted under properly rigorous, repeatable conditions, that would back up that statement? Anybody got a link to one? I'm not trolling here, genuinely interested and open minded on this subject. I can think of lots of practical difficulties, starting with the fact that every piece of wood is an entirely unique object, so comparing a single piece of ash to single piece of mahogany only tells you if there is a sound difference discernible to the ear between those two specific pieces of wood. That can't necessarily be used to draw conclusions about all or most representative examples of "tonewoods". Then there is the problem of how to present the test to large numbers of people, through headphones or speakers of varying and unknown quality and frequency response? It seems like the number of variables inherent to such a test would render it nearly impossible to conduct, but maybe somebody has solved all these problems in a convincing way.

Edit:
Here's a few purported A/B tests. Opinions?
The Blind A/B Test - Does Wood Affect Electric Guitar Tone - Part 4 | Guitar Tonewoods