As to the nightmare on gigs....I see these little micro pedal boards (easy enough to make too)...with the felix and TD bolted to it and prerouted (not taken apart after the gig)...and a powered speaker (which I dont have) it could be fairly quick and easy and plug and play. (plug and plug and play and twiddle and then wonder why it does not sound the way it did over that glass of wine in my studio last night...)
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Double Bass Audio Sprockets ToneDexter
- Thread starter jarrodtravis
- Start date
^^^^Exactly. I would love to try a TD someday, but I would want it to be totally OKAY (One Knob Adjustment, Yo) on the gig. That's kind of a rule with me these days. I went through a period of obsessing over pickups, mics, amps, preamps, etc. and I'm glad that experience is now hardwired, but the biggest upshot of it is each piece of gear must boil down to OKAY, and the fewer the better.
If the TD could be programmed to have a great sounding map and all I had to do was blend in more pickup as the gig got louder, I would be OKAY with that.
If the TD could be programmed to have a great sounding map and all I had to do was blend in more pickup as the gig got louder, I would be OKAY with that.
Well Chris Im telling you like that it works great. Really does especially if you run your pickup thru your amp just like you like the sound and then blend in (via FX) the Wavemap. I think you will be totally happy with one wavemap and some velcro and an on switch.
BUT man running the TD thru the Felix is SICK. pretty easy too. The input from ch 2 goes out thru the tuner out to the TD and then back from there to ch 1 (using only the micyest of un mixed TD) and then to amp FX return. That is a crazy good sound.
Kristian, I'll bet it is easy with the Paradox, it has even more routing possibilities...
But Just the TD running into the FX return of the Focus is what I do at gigs....If I had a powered speaker though....
BUT man running the TD thru the Felix is SICK. pretty easy too. The input from ch 2 goes out thru the tuner out to the TD and then back from there to ch 1 (using only the micyest of un mixed TD) and then to amp FX return. That is a crazy good sound.
Kristian, I'll bet it is easy with the Paradox, it has even more routing possibilities...
But Just the TD running into the FX return of the Focus is what I do at gigs....If I had a powered speaker though....
Well, if it sounds different there is some EQ going on, even if you don't turn the knobs.
It might sound better to you and it is a legitimate way to use it, but the output is not what the Tone Dexter was designed for.
If you want the "pure" ToneDexter with the ability to shape with the Felix you need to train it with the Felix (with a neutral EQ setting).
It might sound better to you and it is a legitimate way to use it, but the output is not what the Tone Dexter was designed for.
If you want the "pure" ToneDexter with the ability to shape with the Felix you need to train it with the Felix (with a neutral EQ setting).
Simple is better, to be sure. This weekend I have used the TD just the way it is supposed to be used (with the Pizz WM) and it sounded great. Done.
BTW the TD works pretty damn well whether I made the WM with a preamp or not or even if I made the WM with a different pickup or even a different bass. In my initial excitement with this device I filled up all the slots and made them with different mics and pickups and basses and I didn't write down what was what. I know a few but mostly I cycle thru until I find something that kills for the venue. Last gig I used the MAS 16 straight up and for some reason it was super thick and bass heavy, I just twisted the knob until I got to something I liked and stopped thinking about it, when the gig was done I looked down at the number and discovered it to be one that in my studio sounds brittle and way too trebly. I don't know why it sounded right at the gig or why it sounds bad at home. But I really like that I can just cycle thru without looking until a WM pops out with the right sound for the moment and then I stop thinking about it.
There are artifacts and little digital tells that pop out sometimes, but the Tonedexter sounds and feels pretty damn convincing when the band gets going.
BTW the TD works pretty damn well whether I made the WM with a preamp or not or even if I made the WM with a different pickup or even a different bass. In my initial excitement with this device I filled up all the slots and made them with different mics and pickups and basses and I didn't write down what was what. I know a few but mostly I cycle thru until I find something that kills for the venue. Last gig I used the MAS 16 straight up and for some reason it was super thick and bass heavy, I just twisted the knob until I got to something I liked and stopped thinking about it, when the gig was done I looked down at the number and discovered it to be one that in my studio sounds brittle and way too trebly. I don't know why it sounded right at the gig or why it sounds bad at home. But I really like that I can just cycle thru without looking until a WM pops out with the right sound for the moment and then I stop thinking about it.
There are artifacts and little digital tells that pop out sometimes, but the Tonedexter sounds and feels pretty damn convincing when the band gets going.
My experience so far is that those artifacts do not appear if I have my mic really close to the instrument. Some mics have a strong proximity effect, that might lead to very boomy results, but in my case it´s a dpa, and you can go really close with it. Even when mostly bowing during training there won´t be any unnatural sounds in the WM. So I guess artifacts do appear if the tonedexter trys to reproduce room AND highs, while highs with little to no room are fine. And next to that a close mic will give you to a tigther WM, I guess a mic on distance will lead to results that might sound great at home, but won´t sound good in the mix.
Why does this sound like such mad science to me? Its like playing god!
...but seriously, cool application. I'll train it on some Bromberg recordings, lol.
so I gigged with my fdeck hpf+ and TD and my MK Studio EUB on three gigs this weekend. I am not sure the hpf+ makes much difference. I will probably keep it attached to my EUB to have a volume knob at easy reach.
Hey Eric, I have done that and it can work. It’s generally better to do it all on the same bass, but if you are using the same (or very similar) pickup on both it can work out ok. I think it makes as much difference which pickup you are using as it does which mic. They all interact differently and also sound different on the gig than they do at home. I did make a few maps with my good bass and an underwood that I have used with my N.S. Omni Bass. They sound pretty good (or at least better than it sounds without them). It doesn’t work nearly as well with maps made with the Stat-b pickup when I try them on the Omni. The response of the two pickups is just too different IMO.
I just got back from my first session with the ToneDexter - Overall, the sound was good and as others have said, the wave map that works best in the live setting may not be the same one that sounds best at home.
I can get a reliable sound with the ischell and yamahiko through the felix but it takes some careful EQ sculpting to get them to work well. The ToneDexter, on the other hand, was super easy to set up - pianist is playing, flip through wave maps to find the one that works best. Drummer joins in, flip through again and find a different wave map works best now. The nice thing with this setup is I can cut down on the cords used and remove a pickup to cut down on clutter and weight (on the tailpiece)
Yet it had one big shortcoming -- the ToneDexter doesn't put out a hot enough signal to drive a powered cabinet. With the Felix, I usually have to put it at 1/4 volume to get where I need to be with my powered MAS1-8. With the ToneDexter, I had to max it out - output set to max and then about 4dB of boost on top of that to get to my usual volume. This means I will have to carry a preamp along to boost the signal between the TD and the powered cabinet.
I can get a reliable sound with the ischell and yamahiko through the felix but it takes some careful EQ sculpting to get them to work well. The ToneDexter, on the other hand, was super easy to set up - pianist is playing, flip through wave maps to find the one that works best. Drummer joins in, flip through again and find a different wave map works best now. The nice thing with this setup is I can cut down on the cords used and remove a pickup to cut down on clutter and weight (on the tailpiece)
Yet it had one big shortcoming -- the ToneDexter doesn't put out a hot enough signal to drive a powered cabinet. With the Felix, I usually have to put it at 1/4 volume to get where I need to be with my powered MAS1-8. With the ToneDexter, I had to max it out - output set to max and then about 4dB of boost on top of that to get to my usual volume. This means I will have to carry a preamp along to boost the signal between the TD and the powered cabinet.
Hi Maple, are you using the 1/4 or DI out? I just looked at the td site (they sent email announcing firmware 1.33), and it says:
"The DI XLR is always balanced and is 6dB hotter than the main 1/4″ output."
Steve
"The DI XLR is always balanced and is 6dB hotter than the main 1/4″ output."
Steve
Yeah
Heres the thing, the damn thing does a brilliant job, but it only costs $400 bucks. It cant have everything in there. There is a reason the Felix is a thousand bucks by itself. (or half of it the Alix is $500) they do something too.I have spent thousands on mics and cabs and preamps in the quest for a sound that I could use every night but that more resembled a bass sound then a plain pickup. The TD sounds good plugged into the FX return on my amp. or it sounds great into the front end of my amp, the DI out to the board sounds pretty good thru the monitors, but the TD sounds fantastic going thru the Felix (turns out after some experimentation for me at least the pickup can go straight into the TD and sounds best after that. But I also ran it thru a friends Demeter Tube direct the other day and some of the WM's sounded awesome.
All this to say yeah you might need to boost the signal with a preamp... but make sure the IMPUT signal on the TD is maximized. Different WM's can have different characteristic levels depending on how you made them (how hot and which pickup and how you played, how close the mic...)
'
Heres the thing, the damn thing does a brilliant job, but it only costs $400 bucks. It cant have everything in there. There is a reason the Felix is a thousand bucks by itself. (or half of it the Alix is $500) they do something too.I have spent thousands on mics and cabs and preamps in the quest for a sound that I could use every night but that more resembled a bass sound then a plain pickup. The TD sounds good plugged into the FX return on my amp. or it sounds great into the front end of my amp, the DI out to the board sounds pretty good thru the monitors, but the TD sounds fantastic going thru the Felix (turns out after some experimentation for me at least the pickup can go straight into the TD and sounds best after that. But I also ran it thru a friends Demeter Tube direct the other day and some of the WM's sounded awesome.
All this to say yeah you might need to boost the signal with a preamp... but make sure the IMPUT signal on the TD is maximized. Different WM's can have different characteristic levels depending on how you made them (how hot and which pickup and how you played, how close the mic...)
I'm using the 1/4" out. the MAS only has a 1/4" input so I would still have to have another device in between to use the DI out.
Ok, Ok, I'm getting it
I set levels so it just hits red when I nail it. I think I'm going to build out a pedal board much like you were describing.You might be happy using a xlr to 1/4 cable between the TD and your MAS.
Hmm hadn’t thought of that. I might even have one of those things in an old box of cables
If the 1/4" connector in the MAS is a HI-Z type (impedance bridging), the sound may not be good. The XLR connector is probably a low-impedance type (impedance matching).
A low impedance output to a high impedance input is no problem at all.
Some DI outs are even switchable from mic level to line level (and a hotter output than the 1/4" leads to the conclusion that the XLR out is line level).
Don't think that matching is important. Think of a load (high input impedance: low load, low input impedance: high load) and you won't like to have the load higher than what the out can deliver.
On the other hand a low output impedance means that it can take high load, but a high output impedance means that a high load would let the output signal break down (at least partially).
But I'm not completely sure about the inverse output signal. Usually on mono XLR-1/4" adapters the inverse signal is bridged to ground. If the output was designed well the shortening shouldn't damage the output and it might even be needed. In most if not all cases it might work in that direction without the bridging (just hot to hot and shield/ground to shield/ground). You might want to check the XLR if there is a short from inverse signal to ground.
Some DI outs are even switchable from mic level to line level (and a hotter output than the 1/4" leads to the conclusion that the XLR out is line level).
Don't think that matching is important. Think of a load (high input impedance: low load, low input impedance: high load) and you won't like to have the load higher than what the out can deliver.
On the other hand a low output impedance means that it can take high load, but a high output impedance means that a high load would let the output signal break down (at least partially).
But I'm not completely sure about the inverse output signal. Usually on mono XLR-1/4" adapters the inverse signal is bridged to ground. If the output was designed well the shortening shouldn't damage the output and it might even be needed. In most if not all cases it might work in that direction without the bridging (just hot to hot and shield/ground to shield/ground). You might want to check the XLR if there is a short from inverse signal to ground.
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