• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Audiophile speakers in bass cab

#2
In general, musical instrument and professional sound reinforcement speakers have to develop higher sound pressure levels and handle more power and are more efficient than typical home hi-fi speakers. While the idea of using audiophile speakers might sound good in theory, I think many people would quickly discover the limitations of these types of speakers for MI and sound reinforcement applications.
 
#4
This design achieves a -3 dB point of around 40 Hz, and a sensitivity of around 90 dB.

Mainstream cabs used by upright players tend to have -3 dB points ranging from 60 to 80 Hz. For reference, the GK MB150 combo hits -3 dB at 80 Hz. If your tastes are along these lines, you will find that the Moskowitz design has too much low end. The low sensitivity is the compromise that allows you to get so much low end out of such a small box. But if you don't actually want that much low end, then you are still stuck with the low sensitivity.

In my view, a preferable 10" design would be the reference design at the Eminence website for their 2510 driver. It has a 60 Hz cutoff, and 95 dB sensitivity. It will be a bit more of a challenge to pair it up with a midrange. One option would be to cross directly to a super tweeter such as the Eminence APT-80. It will need to be padded heavily because its sensitivity is above 100 dB. And it's always possible that you are satisfied with the full range tone of the 1x10.

So I would say, it's a good design for what it is intended for, namely to provide low end extension for 5-string bass, without a lot of overall volume.
 
#6
fdeck said:
In my view, a preferable 10" design would be the reference design at the Eminence website for their 2510 driver. It has a 60 Hz cutoff, and 95 dB sensitivity. It will be a bit more of a challenge to pair it up with a midrange. One option would be to cross directly to a super tweeter such as the Eminence APT-80. It will need to be padded heavily because its sensitivity is above 100 dB. And it's always possible that you are satisfied with the full range tone of the 1x10.
Click to expand...

Which design were you referring to on that sheet? The first one?
 
#8
If you really want to go this route, I'd highly recommend looking at the Acme Low B-1: Invalid Link Removed It has very flat response from 41 Hz to 22 KHz (+/- 3dB) with an audiophile speaker type of sound. -3 dB point is @ 41 Hz and -6 dB @ 31 Hz. Sensitivity is 90 dB SPL with 1 Watt @ 1 Meter, so you'll need lots of power to drive the Low B-1. Construction and overall quality are all top notch, but the best feature of all is that all the engineering has already been done for you, and done very well I might add. The Low B-1 is also very reasonably priced, which is another reason to buy instead of build.

Please note that I am only recommending the Acme Low B-1 in the context of this discussion of audiophile speakers for use with double bass.

Personally, I have found speakers with a sensitivity rating in the vicinity of 100 dB SPL to be far more practical, and I've found absolutely flat response to be less than desirable.
 
#9
dar512 said:
I guess I don't understand. E1 is 41Hz. Why would it be a good thing for a cab to roll off at 60Hz? I would think you'd want a cab that was flat across the range of your instrument.

What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Good question. The answer is counterintuitive, and it could very well be wrong. But I have some ideas about the preference for speakers with cutoff frequencies in the first octave. One thing to consider is that the fundamental is not necessarily even the strongest harmonic, and reproducing it weighs against other issues:

1. Systems with flat response tend to fare poorly in typical room acoustics, and worse in rooms with bad acoustics.

2. Those speakers also have a hard time handling the sub-harmonic "thump" of the plucked bass without over-excursion.

3. Our ears have grown accustomed to a particular amplified tone, for instance in jazz settings.

4. We are tempted by the convenience of carrying tiny little speakers.

People do experiment with flat speakers, as shown by the commercial success of Acme and Accugroove cabinets. Achieving a workable system with the full tone of the bass could be quite rewarding, but it might take some tinkering.
 
#11
fdeck said:
Good question. The answer is counterintuitive, and it could very well be wrong. But I have some ideas about the preference for speakers with cutoff frequencies in the first octave. One thing to consider is that the fundamental is not necessarily even the strongest harmonic, and reproducing it weighs against other issues:

1. Systems with flat response tend to fare poorly in typical room acoustics, and worse in rooms with bad acoustics.

2. Those speakers also have a hard time handling the sub-harmonic "thump" of the plucked bass without over-excursion.

3. Our ears have grown accustomed to a particular amplified tone, for instance in jazz settings.

4. We are tempted by the convenience of carrying tiny little speakers.

People do experiment with flat speakers, as shown by the commercial success of Acme and Accugroove cabinets. Achieving a workable system with the full tone of the bass could be quite rewarding, but it might take some tinkering.
Click to expand...
Very well put.
 
#13
fdeck said:
I now have second thoughts about that 2510 design. The port tuning, at 55 Hz, is rather high, leading to the danger that the driver will suffer from over-excursion on the lowest notes. It requires more thought.
Click to expand...

That's why I asked...the first one only handles 100 watts according to the specs. But other designs on that PDF with somewhat bigger cabs can handle much more power.
 
#14
tornadobass said:
That's why I asked...the first one only handles 100 watts according to the specs. But other designs on that PDF with somewhat bigger cabs can handle much more power.
Click to expand...

Glad you didn't go ahead and order parts based on my advice!

One amusing exercise that I tinkered with is to model the 2510 and 2512 in identical sized boxes. That would mean comparable price and comparable portability. My impression is that the 2512 seems to be more workable.
 
#15
fdeck said:
Glad you didn't go ahead and order parts based on my advice!

One amusing exercise that I tinkered with is to model the 2510 and 2512 in identical sized boxes. That would mean comparable price and comparable portability. My impression is that the 2512 seems to be more workable.
Click to expand...

Hi Francis,

What is the cubic footage for your 2512 model?

I built a couple of the Moskowitz cabs and they sound nice for practising, but lacking in spl. I threw some PAS 10's (SWR oem) in to make 'em more gig worthy but are lacking in the mids with an upright. Sounds ok with the electric bass.
 
#16
I've built two of Fdeck's 2512 cabinets so I thought I'd chime in regarding their usefulness with DB. First of all, Francis and I are using different basses, pickups and heads. Amplifying a DB is a matter of finding the right combination of equipment to work as a whole.
The cabinet has two big selling points.
1) It is extremely light, small and portable.
2) It sounds great with electric bass.

It also has a nice, warm midrange that works nicely with DB in many situations. But after using it for several months, I am looking elsewhere for a DB cabinet because I'm not entirely happy with the low end. The cutoff at 80hz seems a bit high. I've lately been cranking the bass knob on the Clarus to get more low end. Asking a speaker cabinet to do more than it is designed for is not a good idea. This just raises the distortion and makes the cone do weird things, even at modest volumes. I also think the upper mids are too prominent. Part of what I'm hearing may be the Neo driver phenomenon that some talk about. Some say they sound weaker than their more massive bretheren. I don't know.
Look at a response plot for the driver.
http://www.bltsound.com/eminence/deltaliteII2512.pdf

Regarding the volume of the cabinet, I don't remember. It measures exactly the same as Fdeck's-17 x 15 x 12 (I think). Subtract 1" for 1/2" birch ply and the internal dimension of the port is about 1 1/8". I think it is 9" deep. This is from memory.

These are nice cabinets and perfectly fine for DB, but I am just not getting the sound I hear in my head. Setting the EQ flat allows me to really cut through and be heard at high volume, but I sound more like a slab player than I want. I miss the bottom.

I want to add this. In running the numbers I found that to gain the extra octave in the low end the cabinet would need to be triple the size-98 liters I think. It didn't seem like such a good idea. It seems to me that Fdeck has made the best choice he could with this particular driver.
 
#17
Clink,

It's too bad the 12" didn't work out for you on upright. But thanks for giving it a try and reporting your results.

I just looked at another arrangement -- the time-tested Eminence BP102 driver. In 37 liters with a 40 Hz port, it provides roughly 93 dB sensitivity, and an F3 of around 50 Hz. Its generous Xmax lets it handle a fair amount of power. It is 4 dB quieter than my box, but that's just the good old "small, loud, low" rule.

The BP102 cuts off drastically at 2 kHz, so it may need some midrange help.

The 2512 has a prominent response peak at 5 kHz, before it cuts off. From my readings, it seems that this is due to radiation from the dust cap, combined with the flared cone acting as a sort of horn.
 
#18
It certainly doesn't sound bad at all; just not what I hear in my head. Or maybe I'm just chasing my tail on this quest.

I looked at the BP102 also, as well as a few other options. Adding other drivers can introduce a slew of problems for the average hacker like me. There is matching the output levels, choosing the crossover frequency and whether to do it at 12, 18, 24db. Without someone to do a lot of R & D (trial and error), the average guy with a few power tools and a soldering iron has a tough time putting together something better than a commercial product at a given price. I've put together stereo speakers and built (designed) tube amps from kits and ideas in Audio Amateur and other sources in the past. While it can be fun and rewarding, it is hit and miss.

In the end, I'll go with something tried and true.
 
#19
Anybody try to make a smallish box out of an Eminence Beta 12A?

It's a 4 ohm speaker with decent highs and good power handling and doesn't need a big box. I think there's a wizzer version of it too.

I put a couple of them in an old Kustom 212 cab and it was a big improvement over the stock speakers.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back