Avatar? ...Is it just a "Knockoff" ???

[SteveD]

I read somewhere that Dave (owner of Avatar) said he got his cab specs from a guy who was a boutique cab designer and ran Dave's speaker specs through a cutomized computer program to arrive at optimized cab specs for Dave. The boutique company was named, but I can't remember which one it was.

 

[sonicnuance]

This

Good cabs. Great for the price. I would not consider them "great" cabs but certainly better than many cabs that cost as much or more.

+1 to everything said

I have owned Avatar since he started making them in San Rafael, CA

Good stuff but the pickier I got about tone, the more I outgrew them. It is not in the same league as Epifani and other Boutique brands IMHO

However it is much better then almost anything at that price point for new equipment. It is just when you get into "I want the best tone at any cost" that the deck is stacked against Avatar.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I read somewhere that Dave (owner of Avatar) said he got his cab specs from a guy who was a boutique cab designer and ran Dave's speaker specs through a cutomized computer program to arrive at optimized cab specs for Dave.

If you want to design your own cab with a 'customized computer program' down load this:

http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisdpro

And it's free.

The fact of the matter is that all speaker design software programs utilize exactly the same formulas, so where the low end is concerned all direct radiating speaker cabs are made according to the same specifications. Some 90% of them also use drivers from the same source, Eminence. Therefore the differences between a utilitarian brand like Avatar and boutique brands have little to nothing to do with either the basic design parameters or the drivers. Which is not to say that there can't be major differences, because cabinet design software alone is only responsible for the low frequency characteristics of the speaker, accounting for less than half of the final result. The rest lies in the level of expertise of the cabinet designer, but that's not revealed by the price of the product. Some inexpensive cabs are reasonably well engineered, and some 'boutique' cabs are very poorly engineered, so you can't go by price alone.

 

[73jbass]

I gotta disagree here. I've been using an Avatar neo 410 for 2 years and couldn't be more pleased. I had owned an Accugroove,and Bergantiono just before getting the Avatar.The Avatar was lighter,cleaner,and just sounded better overall.The price just made it even better.I've been gigging that cab for 2 years and get nothing but compliments from other musicians on my tone. They may not be in the same price class as the boutique guys,but I'll never own another boutique cab. Whether a cab sound better than another is of course subjective,but saying it's not in the same class is just not true.

Having owned a 4x10 Eden, Avatar, and Berg I will tell you straight up that the Avatar is not in the same class.

I wouldn't gig the Avatar 4x10, just did not like the sound. I have an Avatar 2x12 guitar cab though and it does sound very nice.

Hold out for a used 410 XLT Eden.

 

[4Mal]

I had a 2-12 from Avatar and I noticed one part that seemed cheaply made.......it was the mounting plate that the removeable casters slid into. The retaining clip bent slightly and then broke off when I tried to bend it back.

I think it was due to poor design, as it was moved across a carpeted floor (without casters) and caught on the retaining clip bending it. On my Epifani, the clip seemed to be recessed slightly so it would get out of the way. Also, I think the quality of the metal on the clip could have been sturdier.

Good luck,
Vince

Last I knew, Avatar doesn't actually offer casters as an option. Sounds like an aftermarket add-on and not well thought out.

I've had a number of Avatar cab's and they've been fine. Fine to the point where it's a matter of taste and EQ to get what I need.

Fit and finish wise I've never had an issue with Avatar. Metal jack plate, decent grille mounting, same corners that everyone else uses... Carpet seams are tight. They seem fine to me.

Last year I replaced my Schroeder 21012L with an SB112 and B210 mini-stack. The down side ? The tweet in the Schroeder was way better. The Hi's, which I lkeep dialed down were smoother and more 'bell like'. The compression driver in use I believe had been upgraded and hte crossover had been re-worked before I got the cab. I gigged that cab pretty hard in a rock band environment and it delivered just fine.

The upside of the change - about half the cost. Modularity I can take 1 or both cab's. That is actually a big deal for me as I do a lot of lower level smaller room playing these days. Tighter bass, less boom - depending on you and your ears that is good or bad - for me it works better. The tweet ? It's upgradable ...

I'm playing with biamping at the moment. Running the mini-stack as the low and a B&C 6.5" mid driver as the high. Sounds pretty darned good. The low's and low mid's are just fine for me as a 4 banger, passive and active guy. The new setup has better upper mids and smoother hi's - kind of reinforces that the crossover point (5K) is too high and the Foster horn - basically sucks ... happily those are easily and inexpensively resolved issues ...

From a design standpoint, I believe that Eminence themselves did the box designs for Avatar.

Boo-teak vs Avatar... If you read the fEarful thread and pay attention you might come to the conclusion that ALL cabinets are a series of compromises. That would include those from Epifani, Bergantino, Bag End, Avatar ... you have to pick the set of compromises that work best for you - a big part of living with any of these is using your ears, paying attention, learning to read the room, learning to EQ... IMO - the operator has more influence on what things sound like out front than the cab does.

 

[4Mal]

I gotta disagree here. I've been using an Avatar neo 410 for 2 years and couldn't be more pleased. I had owned an Accugroove,and Bergantiono just before getting the Avatar.The Avatar was lighter,cleaner,and just sounded better overall.The price just made it even better.I've been gigging that cab for 2 years and get nothing but compliments from other musicians on my tone. They may not be in the same price class as the boutique guys,but I'll never own another boutique cab. Whether a cab sound better than another is of course subjective,but saying it's not in the same class is just not true.

not the first time I've read that or heard that. Particularly from the classic rock, blues band oriented folks. The low end of the Avatar 4x10 is a little loose. Paired with a crisp solid state head, that might translate into warmth... put that same head on something boo-teak and it might translate into 'sterile'...

 

[ChrisPbass]

My experience w/cabs is Schroeder and Avatar and multiple guitar cabinets. 'my' guitar player has one of thier 2x12 cabs. I don't see anything wrong with the Avy...it goes DEEP (2x10) and sounds good. There is nothing wrong w/the cab at all. No fit and finish issues...nothing. It was relatively cheap...Dave was quick on the reply...and I got it in TWO days and that was paying ground!

 

[LevinFan]

I made my choice to buy an Avatar due to skimming through the threads here on TB. I was just about to order a new one and a used 212neo popped up in the classifieds and I grabbed it. Paid 250.00 for it, and honestly, I wouldn't sell it for the price of a brand new one.

I love it.

 

[kraigo]

+1. There are always design trade-offs happening. Most cabs are smaller boxes than the ideal for the drivers they enclose. Most comapanies' 2x12 and 4x10 cabs are the some basic box with different baffles and porting. Most manufacturer's work within those parameters and in the case of Bergantino, for example, a lot of people are happy with the trade-offs they made.

I haven't got an Avatar, but I'm pretty sure I could be very happy playing one. The sound of a bass cab solo'd means nothing to me. All that matters to me is that I'm happy with the sound (first order of business: "Can I hear myself clearly without anyone asking me to turn down?") when the rest of the band is playing. I suspect the delicious highs aren't noticeable with guitar and drums mixed in. I've learned to love a controlled low end, but I wonder how much better the expensive cabs are in that regard and couldn't one just back off the low end and bump the low mids instead?

I don't doubt that the really expensive cabs sound better. I tend to be happy lower on the cost/performance curve than some of us, apparently.

KO

I'd consider the term "proper engineering" a somewhat 'loaded' term. And strictly speaking, they're all "knockoffs" considering the underlying design theory.

Although the design theory for bass systems has become fairly sophisticated since the work of A. N. Thiele and N. Small, there are many compromises that can be made in choosing how you design a system based on what you want from it - efficiency, bandwidth, transient response. Just recall that the only acoustic reason you have a box is to enhance the low-frequency output of a loudspeaker (driver). Of course, the box also helps give a mounting method for drivers of a full-range cabinet. The driver can also be made to specific parameters that a company may want in terms of the quality of the sound of the driver, cone composition and other aspects of the cone/voice coil design/manufacture and how the magnetic circuit design affects the sound. These choices are indicative of the company's design philosophy and dictate the resultant sound of the final system and so the ensuing debate over sound takes off.

Most home-brew constructionists (which includes me) have to find an existing driver that has that sound that they want. Obviously, that can be a long, trial and error period to do that. Of course, in recent years, Internet sites and forums have developed to help folks learn about the acoustics/physics involved and to construct their own cabs/systems.

My point is that there's so much to consider and so much you can do to design a good sounding system. I think Avatar has done a great job in the design of their cabs, especially the newer neo-driver cabs. I had tried some of their ceramic magnet driver loaded cabs over the last few years that friends have owned, which is why I finally bought a B212 Neo cab about two years ago. Since I've built my own cabs, and some for others, over the last thirty-six years, I don't buy many name brand cabs (audition, yes), but I do currently own Avatar and Euphonic Audio. And I haven't even addressed the commercial and marketing aspects of competing in the marketplace. That's an entirely different aspect based on opinion of each of the producing companies involved.

Lloyd Howard

 

[Lo end PUNCH]

I've owned, played or demo'd them all... Eden, Shroeders, Bergies, SWR, EA, EBS, Epi's, Bag End, Dr. Bass, Aggies, Mark Bass, Mesa, Trace's, Ashdown, Glocks etc. and to be perfectly honest, the ONLY cabinets IMHO that were *{significantly}* better than the Avatars I've owned were the Accu Grooves, which are WAY out of Avatars price range. Bang for buck for me, Avatars are the best there is.

 

[Mr-Wunderful]

I picked up my Avatar 212 Neo for $150 used, man did I get a sweet deal. At the time I needed a small to medium cab quick, no time to build. Love it, it's perfect for my current band (a rocking acoustic celtic thing). The casters on mine are great though I'm pretty sure they're aftermarket. The cab itself is very well made. I have no complaints, sounds good, looks good, and it's easy to move and load.

 

[73jbass]

not the first time I've read that or heard that. Particularly from the classic rock, blues band oriented folks. The low end of the Avatar 4x10 is a little loose. Paired with a crisp solid state head, that might translate into warmth... put that same head on something boo-teak and it might translate into 'sterile'...

Here again I have to disagree. The low end out of my Avatar is very tight.The Accugroove I had before wasn't near as tight. The Bergantino was close.It sounded great,but the weight was killing me. My standard gigging rig is a MM Sterling,Thunderfunk head,and the Avatar 4x10.Been using that combination for a few years now,and never even considered another combination.

 

[SteveD]

If you want to design your own cab with a 'customized computer program' down load this:

http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisdpro

And it's free.

The fact of the matter is that all speaker design software programs utilize exactly the same formulas, so where the low end is concerned all direct radiating speaker cabs are made according to the same specifications. Some 90% of them also use drivers from the same source, Eminence. Therefore the differences between a utilitarian brand like Avatar and boutique brands have little to nothing to do with either the basic design parameters or the drivers. Which is not to say that there can't be major differences, because cabinet design software alone is only responsible for the low frequency characteristics of the speaker, accounting for less than half of the final result. The rest lies in the level of expertise of the cabinet designer, but that's not revealed by the price of the product. Some inexpensive cabs are reasonably well engineered, and some 'boutique' cabs are very poorly engineered, so you can't go by price alone.

+1

Thanks as always, Bill! Your comments are consistently useful.

 

[MooseLumps]

I love mine, and they are real troopers. Some like their boutique stuff, but if I had a berg and there was a fire, I couldn't afford another berg for years. Avatars are better in my economic position, sound great, get the job done, support local business... tons of great stuff. the only reason that I'm trying to sell mine is a lack of need for a full stack and bills to pay.

 

[troyus]

Here again I have to disagree. The low end out of my Avatar is very tight.The Accugroove I had before wasn't near as tight. The Bergantino was close.It sounded great,but the weight was killing me. My standard gigging rig is a MM Sterling,Thunderfunk head,and the Avatar 4x10.Been using that combination for a few years now,and never even considered another combination.

My problem with the Avatar is not necessarily the sound quality, it actually sounded nice. The big beef was the bloom characteristics weren't very good. No one in my bands could hear my bass in rehearsal. Rather, not all of them could hear me. It was the one and only experience I had where I kept getting requests from different people in practice for me to turn my cab towards them. Bass drives the bands I play with so if these guys can't hear me it becomes a disaster petty quick.