Avatar? ...Is it just a "Knockoff" ???

[RickenBoogie]

Bottom line, if you can't or don't hear a difference, there's no point in paying extra money. Many people, myself included, CAN hear a difference, and are willing to shell out bigger bucks for the improvement in tone. And that's the real difference.

 

[dannster]

So what makes them less than the others - is it engineering, lack of quality parts, lack of Boutique Name Plate. Really can someone quantify why a Neo Loaded Avatar is worse than a Neo Loaded Boutique name - yes I am just stirring the pot

The biggest cost savings is they are sold direct from the manufacturer with little or no advertising. Seems word of mouth has worked wonders, plus a few magazine reviews and those of us who have them chiming up on here.

I used to have SWR cabs. Now I have four Avatar cabs. I haven't looked back in regret.
The only real downfall to me is the vinyl covering is a little thin and flimsy. Some freak out over the tweeter not being amazing but I'm not much of a tweeter guy. I usually turn mine down to a 1/3.

 

[Steelpulz]

I own old school B410 and a B212. I love them. I also play through a 4 ohm B210 Neo cab. It sounds great also. you can hear it on vids at Link Removed.

 

[Laredo]

I own an Epifani UL410 series I, and I've owned an Aguilar S410, as well as an Avatar 410 Neo.

I would not hesitate to gig the Avatar 410.

If I could summarize the difference between the Avatar and my Epifani for example, the Avatar is just less refined. It gets you there 85-90% of the way. Tons of low end, but just...not as refined as the Epifani. The highs are harsher and not as sweet as the Epifani, the mids are not as rich and smooth, the low end isn't as controlled or clear.

I have Avatar, Ampeg (USA), Markbass, and Epifani. I really like the Epifani stuff, but the Avatar is nothing to sneeze at for the money.................If you are limited by how much you can spend, try the new "Epifunky" line from Epifani. It is priced less than their PS line, but has much better sound and quality than comparable bargain cabinets. I have been testing a new Epifunky 210 (4 Ohm) cabinet, and it really is amazing.............Priced like Avatar, but more of the above mentioned "refined" Epifani sound..............If you hesitate on taking my word, wait until the review from Bass Gear Magazine! Epifani is going to sell a pile of these things, because they offer great sound at budget pricing!

 

[timber22]

Another mid-grade product is the DR Bass cabs......I would rate them slightly higher than the Avatar's in quality and higher in sound quality. It too was covered with Line-X and the DR Bass cab seemed to be a lil beefier and overall more a sound structure.

For one comparison, I recently acquired a lightly used Avatar 115 and compared it side-by-side with my DrBass 115. The Avatar sounds very good and has a nice deep low end. The DrBass is definitely "tighter" or "punchier" and I prefer it in a side-by side comparison. As someone else said, would anyone in the crowd notice the difference in a loud club with crappy acoustics? -- I doubt it. The Avatar is definitely a good bang for the buck.

 

[agreatheight]

I have an Avatar 2x12 guitar cab though and it does sound very nice.

Avatar's guitar cabs are really excellent. I have an Avatar Vintage G112 loaded with a Hellatone 60 (a Celestion Vintage 30 that they exercised the suspension on). It holds up against almost every guitar cab I have recorded, including Marshall, Vox, Matchless, Divided by 13. Ridiculous for the money. I have not tried their bass stuff yet, tho.

 

[bluedyna]

Avatar sells cabinets with no advertising as far as I know. Yet they sell tons of them.
They don't have to include retail stores in their pricing.
All the other brands mentioned probably cost about the same to build...then add profit for dealers in the price.
Dr. Bass does not but, they have all kinds of other "issues".
Avatar has awesome customer service and you are talking to the factory when you call.
Product, Service and price is why people buy Avatar.

 

[black_labb]

i'd say that avatar is inferior to the brands that do some proper engineering, but there are plenty of brands that are priced boutique/considered boutique ect that don't do the engineering and get by on an image/brand recognition ect.

 

[fivestringgecko]

Dr. Bass does not but, they have all kinds of other "issues".

Curious again, what are the other "issues?"

i'd say that avatar is inferior to the brands that do some proper engineering...

Can you define "proper engineering" further and explain it in layman's (i.e. me lol) terms? I'm definitely not an engineer, so I don't know what's good or bad. How is the engineering in Avatar any different from the likes of Berg, Epi or Dr. Bass?

5sg.

 

[FuzzBoxVoodoo]

+1
I sold my Eden 410XLT and my BagEnd Qdbx4x10 and while each one of them did have a little bit better clarity in certain areas neither one did the overall job as well in my opinion and they each had there own little quirks or demands that the Avatar Cab's dont seem to have any odd demands just easy to use and gig.
Steve

I sold Eden 410 and 210's and am playing Avatars and completely happy.

Some people are more particular than others... the name on the cab does not effect their weight or sound, but most importantly for me, 'their price'. They're more than gig-worthy and they're great band for the buck.

 

[newbold]

Most of what I understand Avatar to have lacking is Fit and Finish.

Unless you really need the perfection right away, go for the cheap rig now and you'll be able to justify the upgrades as time goes by.

 

[vinxbass]

I've played gigs with both the 2-12 Neo and the B410 Neo and they are excellent cabs. Though, when I was in the market to buy I went with the Carvin BRX10.4 neo, because I felt it had a tighter low end sound. BTW, it's turned out to be a excellent cab.

 

[Pilgrim]

You just rationalized your way to not getting the best - or the perceived best?

"Best" is relative. Rolls-Royce may be the "best" for certain things, Ferrari for others, but both statements are effectively meaningless to me because I'll never buy either one. Not in my budget, not ever, nossir.

I'll also not spend the money for an upper-end cab because of my gear budget and because I LIKE the sound from my GK Goldline 4x10.

"Best" to me means "best combination of performance and price within my range". I don't need to rationalize not spending $2000 on an amp or cab when I have one that works and sounds great for me, and costs much less.

 

[panaran]

I love Avatars personally. I've gigged a 410 Neo out of an Ampeg B4R in a 300-400 person bar and I didnt even have it cranked. Avatar cabs may not be as good as the high end cabs, but their quality far exceeds their cost.

I think they sound great anyway. i just bought another 212 neo =)

 

[bongomania]

Curious again, what are the other "issues?"

Long delays and poor communication about those delays.

Can you define "proper engineering" further and explain it in layman's (i.e. me lol) terms? I'm definitely not an engineer, so I don't know what's good or bad. How is the engineering in Avatar any different from the likes of Berg, Epi or Dr. Bass?

First, Dr. Bass is like Avatar, not like Berg or Epi. Engineering comes in because the actual measurements of the speaker box must be within a certain range to get optimal results from any one specific speaker. And the math can get fairly complicated. Most budget cab companies don't bother to do that math, they just build a box that looks right to them. Add on to that the ports, you have to use some science to get the right type, number, size, shape, and placement of ports. Most budget cab companies have no clue in that regard. Or rather I should say they seem to know just enough about the subject in order to convince people they know what they're doing, but they fail to actually consider the acoustic size/space needs of the different speakers they may install. Few 15" cabs are actually big enough to get the benefit of a 15" speaker. Few cabs that have a midrange speaker bother to give it its own proper box within the overall cab. Bracing (wooden interior support structure) is another subject-- budget cabs will have enough bracing to keep the box from collapsing, but the really well designed cabs use the bracing to help the box most optimally project the ideal sound. A good cab is literally "tuned" like an instrument or an engine--all the parts have to align and operate together, not just as a simple assembly of components. Budget cabs are just a simple assembly of components.

Note though that often that is what will rock the house best for a certain player, gig, or room. I'm not actually dissing the budget cabs, just explaining the engineering angle as requested.

 

[lhoward]

I'd consider the term "proper engineering" a somewhat 'loaded' term. And strictly speaking, they're all "knockoffs" considering the underlying design theory.

Although the design theory for bass systems has become fairly sophisticated since the work of A. N. Thiele and N. Small, there are many compromises that can be made in choosing how you design a system based on what you want from it - efficiency, bandwidth, transient response. Just recall that the only acoustic reason you have a box is to enhance the low-frequency output of a loudspeaker (driver). Of course, the box also helps give a mounting method for drivers of a full-range cabinet. The driver can also be made to specific parameters that a company may want in terms of the quality of the sound of the driver, cone composition and other aspects of the cone/voice coil design/manufacture and how the magnetic circuit design affects the sound. These choices are indicative of the company's design philosophy and dictate the resultant sound of the final system and so the ensuing debate over sound takes off.

Most home-brew constructionists (which includes me) have to find an existing driver that has that sound that they want. Obviously, that can be a long, trial and error period to do that. Of course, in recent years, Internet sites and forums have developed to help folks learn about the acoustics/physics involved and to construct their own cabs/systems.

My point is that there's so much to consider and so much you can do to design a good sounding system. I think Avatar has done a great job in the design of their cabs, especially the newer neo-driver cabs. I had tried some of their ceramic magnet driver loaded cabs over the last few years that friends have owned, which is why I finally bought a B212 Neo cab about two years ago. Since I've built my own cabs, and some for others, over the last thirty-six years, I don't buy many name brand cabs (audition, yes), but I do currently own Avatar and Euphonic Audio. And I haven't even addressed the commercial and marketing aspects of competing in the marketplace. That's an entirely different aspect based on opinion of each of the producing companies involved.

Lloyd Howard

 

[fivestringgecko]

Thanks to everyone for their time/patience with me, I definitely appreciate your info!

Newbold,
As far as your Fit and Finish point, can you be more specific? I struggled to find something wrong with the Avatar when I got it and couldn’t... everything feels really tough and solid. They even put this funky cool black astroturf looking stuff on the front panel around the speakers! Might not be for everyone, but I think it’s a nice touch.

Bongo,
As a consumer, how do I know who’s doing what engineering? Stuff like tuning frequencies and cabinet efficiency ratings doesn’t seem to be publicly available. I’m a little skeptical that a company like Avatar (or Harke or whoever) hasn’t bothered to do the math on proper cabinet dimensions. It sounds like Avatar has been around for quite a while... If they were cutting corners, wouldn’t they have gone out of business long ago?

LHoward,
If I’m reading your post right, it seems like what you’re saying is that perhaps this is the way Avatar has purposely designed their cabinets... and what it really boils down to my personal cab preference as a player/listener (like Coke vs. Pepsi or Coors vs. Bud)?

Apparently I’m still just trying to understand this “boutique” vs. “budget” debate... maybe I just won’t ever truly get it unless I actually get to play a Berg or Epifani? lol

5sg.

 

[bongomania]

As a consumer, how do I know who’s doing what engineering? Stuff like tuning frequencies and cabinet efficiency ratings doesn’t seem to be publicly available. I’m a little skeptical that a company like Avatar (or Harke or whoever) hasn’t bothered to do the math on proper cabinet dimensions. It sounds like Avatar has been around for quite a while... If they were cutting corners, wouldn’t they have gone out of business long ago?

It's not easy at all to figure this stuff out. Aside from my own ears, I rely on two things: subjective opinions from other players whose opinions have not steered me wrong in the past, and advice from the qualified speaker-cab designers here. Remember that everyone has an opinion, and everyone likes to say that the gear they have is awesome, and sometimes the "hype machine" is spinning fast, so you can't just accept every positive comment you see. But once you've been around here a while you'll see who gives the more balanced, educated, experienced, or otherwise trustworthy advice/opinions. IMO that's the best tool we have for trying to understand this stuff, other than studying acoustical engineering ourselves.

what it really boils down to my personal cab preference as a player/listener (like Coke vs. Pepsi or Coors vs. Bud)?

Honestly that is the bottom line.

 

[bluedyna]

Dr. Bass seems to have a decent product but, lack of customer support and backlog of product is a problem. When purchasing a product that is not "name brand", customer support is priority 1, Avatar has that priority in order.
Many people have ordered Dr. Bass and spent months waiting for what they have paid for, with no updates.
I will pay for customer service and with Avatar, delivered within a week, you get a quality product with A#1 support.
Have no fear, buy Avatar.
From a satiisfied customer.
Before Talkbass.com, I had never heard of Avatar.
Worth the price of membership!

 

[jtc_hunter]

The real question to me is not whether a Berg or Epi cab is better than my Avatar. It almost definitely is. What matters is if anyone can notice the difference when a full band is blaring in a club/bar with crappy acoustics. Once I looked at it that way I figured I was better off saving the money.

Now that is straight up, real world.