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Avatar sounds like........
- Thread starter McGroovin'
- Start date
how wide was that dip?
...
i understand the measurements, but in actual use, at least with a 4 string bass, the low end is actually pretty great. and it projects really well into a room. which not all cabs, even expensive hi-fi ones, will do. so you end up needing less low end because more of what's there is going to reach people's ears.
i guess -12 @ 40 would stink for B strings tho!
Just wondering, how does the Avatar 212 compare with the Avatar 210 in the tightness and punch area. Do the 12's lose a lot of tightness and punch?
my old 210PRO used to fart out very quickly and was neither tight or punchy, my 212 on the otherhand could handle most gigs on it's own and had more than enough punch. 
the avatar isn't as smooth and warm as my aguilar S410 but it's more articulate, and i think the avatar cuts through better.
I have an older SB112 - I replaced the Delta with a Kappa and either way - this is a warm, round, full sounding cabinet that never stops getting copliments especially with the sansamp/QSC and BBE.
I run a pretty deep sound, with highs rolled off and punchy mids. It is "THE" small room rig for me. If its a bigger room without putting it throught eh PA, I use my AMpeg SVT 410 HLF, and if I really want to emphasize that I OWN those low freq's, I add the Avatar AND run through the PA subs
I would love a second SB112, and would sell off my MusicMan 1-15 folded horn with the JBL in it. It drives a tighter punchy higher low/mid type sound. Coupled with the Avatar, it is really Badass! A lot to carry though. the two 1-12's would fit in my car, and I would not need to use the SUV.
I run a pretty deep sound, with highs rolled off and punchy mids. It is "THE" small room rig for me. If its a bigger room without putting it throught eh PA, I use my AMpeg SVT 410 HLF, and if I really want to emphasize that I OWN those low freq's, I add the Avatar AND run through the PA subs
I would love a second SB112, and would sell off my MusicMan 1-15 folded horn with the JBL in it. It drives a tighter punchy higher low/mid type sound. Coupled with the Avatar, it is really Badass! A lot to carry though. the two 1-12's would fit in my car, and I would not need to use the SUV.
Does the Avatar 210 neo sound anything like the old Carvin RL210T? I have the RL210T and it sounds pretty good and if the Avatar sounds anything like it then I'd definitely be looking to get one.
I have an Eden 410T (rear ported 4 10's and a tweeter) cabinet that I've used for years. I love it except for the weight < 90 lbs!!! Looking at the Avatar 212 as a second 8 ohm cabinet in my setup to play at a total load of 4 ohms through a svt3pro head. I play Rock in medium size rooms for the most part. Would I be gaining any low end with the Avatar 212, or what exactly might I be gaining if anything? Thanks. First post. Woot!
John L. Murphy
Commercial User
For someone unfamiliar with spectrum analyzer measurements the level shift Bruce has noticed may be unexpected. But experienced engineers will recognize this as correct behavior. This is not a "bug" at all.
Let me explain. As the resolution of TrueRTA is increased (say from 1/3rd octave to 1/24th octave) the individual frequency bins become narrower and each bin measures a lower signal level. This is totally correct behavior for a spectrum analyzer and any other behavior would be in error. Bruce has aired his complaints loudly in the AVS forum where I have addressed his reported "bugs" in detail. He insists that measurements should not change as the analyzer resolution is changed and will not accept my explanation that this level shift is both necessary and correct.
Perhaps the experienced users of TrueRTA on this forum can convince him that TrueRTA is actually giving correct results. I will definitely address any reproduceable bug in TrueRTA that is brought to my attention. But the change in level as the analyzers resolution is changed is not a bug. This is normal behavior for any variable resolution RTA.
Maybe an example will help to make clear why the background leven MUST change as each frequency bin is made narrower. The sequence below shows what happens when you change resolutions after measuring a sine wave a 0 dBu. Notice that the peak at 500 Hz remains at the same level as we change resolutions. But the broadband noise floor decreases as the resolution is increased...as it should. Each 1/24 octave bin is measuring only a fraction of the signal measured by a 1 octave wide frequency bin. But the bin at 500 Hz measures about the same signal level as that bin is made narrower. So the 500 Hz tone remains constant around 0 dBu even as the resolution is changed. The remaining bins are measuring mostly white noise and as such they fall in level as the bin is made more narrow.
For those engineers seasoned in such measurements this is a normal and fully expected behavour. But occasionally a user who is inexperienced in audio measurements will question why the noise floor shifts. This is the first time, however, that this effect has been reported as a software bug.
Regards,
John
John L. Murphy
Physicist/Audio Engineer
True Audio
http://www.trueaudio.com
I figured that I'd have to find out for myself so today I ordered a B210neo with Line X coating in 4 ohm. Dave sent me an email telling me that it'll ship tomorrow. So I'll get to hear it for myself next week sometime. 
Link Removed
My issue with TrueRTA is the huge difference between the actual measurement (1/24) and the result when changing to 1/3 octave, as shown above. John has offered significant math, etc, to substantiate his position.
Right or wrong, in the chart above, the 1/3 octave results are +10dB over actual, and would be seriously misleading to anybody contemplating buying that cabinet. Very few bass players are seasoned engineers, and they would be seriously mislead by the 1/3 octave results. The solution for me, is never use the 1/3 octave results.
We have disagreed over the support and handling of this issue to the extent that John revoked my user license to TrueRTA. The removal of my license prevents me from doing further work. It also prevents my reporting any more bugs with TrueRTA. Unfortunately, the Invalid Link Removed got swept under the carpet while this one took center stage.
As to the original poster question, the Avatar B410 Neo chart was created at 1/24 resolution, where the chart agrees with the SPL meter. IMO, the chart for the Avatar is entirely accurate.
My issue with TrueRTA is the huge difference between the actual measurement (1/24) and the result when changing to 1/3 octave, as shown above. John has offered significant math, etc, to substantiate his position.
Right or wrong, in the chart above, the 1/3 octave results are +10dB over actual, and would be seriously misleading to anybody contemplating buying that cabinet. Very few bass players are seasoned engineers, and they would be seriously mislead by the 1/3 octave results. The solution for me, is never use the 1/3 octave results.
We have disagreed over the support and handling of this issue to the extent that John revoked my user license to TrueRTA. The removal of my license prevents me from doing further work. It also prevents my reporting any more bugs with TrueRTA. Unfortunately, the Invalid Link Removed got swept under the carpet while this one took center stage.
As to the original poster question, the Avatar B410 Neo chart was created at 1/24 resolution, where the chart agrees with the SPL meter. IMO, the chart for the Avatar is entirely accurate.
they sound like noone else....i just sold my eden 210xst and bought a 212 neo......this thing rocks!!
My 2x12 and 2x10 rig sounds like my SWR head. Clean, meaty and whatever you put into it. I run both tweeters all the time at about 65-75 percent and lots of 12 khz+ and "transparency" control. Very hi-fi that way, but I did some classic rock gigs (tried to make my Wishbass sound like an Eb-0 {Jack Bruce}) so I killed the treble and bumped the mids and it sounded like i was borrowing jacks rig. Very flexible cabs. I would say that they fall on the warm side of sterile, but not woofy or thunderous till the eq is tweaked. With everything flat, warm side of sterile. Clean like the NASA satellite prep room, but still warmish. btw, the twelves have more surface area and move faster than a fifteen and hence make me very happy Ii chose that route, they really pound and; with a bump to sub-bass, rumble for days.
OK - they fall off at 40 but so does most everything out there - and you can pump up the low's of you need to ... as a low E guy, mid 50s -3, 40 -12 is fine in the real world ...
the gap at 2.8 is not suprising - cheap horn - like most of the other mid-level cab's out there. If there wan;t a dip there - I'd be eq'ing one in any as that is an angry fret clack zone in my rig.
Real world use - the Avatar is a meat and potatoes cab as noted above - actually I think of it more like a 'tastes like chicken' cab. A little EQ'ing can take you a long way with it.
The mistake I use when descibing Avatar cab's most often is - I use the phrase 'for the money - it's a great cab'. Really - the cab is a fine stand alone cab and competes with cab's a lot more expensive - that XLT Bruce mentioned for 1 - I would have to say that they compete fairly well with my Schroeder 410R tonally - maybe no in shear impact - not many 410's can though ...
and of course - you can always upgrade the tweeter and crossover ...
the gap at 2.8 is not suprising - cheap horn - like most of the other mid-level cab's out there. If there wan;t a dip there - I'd be eq'ing one in any as that is an angry fret clack zone in my rig.
Real world use - the Avatar is a meat and potatoes cab as noted above - actually I think of it more like a 'tastes like chicken' cab. A little EQ'ing can take you a long way with it.
The mistake I use when descibing Avatar cab's most often is - I use the phrase 'for the money - it's a great cab'. Really - the cab is a fine stand alone cab and competes with cab's a lot more expensive - that XLT Bruce mentioned for 1 - I would have to say that they compete fairly well with my Schroeder 410R tonally - maybe no in shear impact - not many 410's can though ...
and of course - you can always upgrade the tweeter and crossover ...
John L. Murphy
Commercial User
Let's go over it again. These measurements are not trivial and take a while to understand. This time I'll use the SPL mode to demonstrate that a measured peak does not change in level as you go from 1 to 1/3 to 1/24 octave resolution. The measurement depends strongly on the nature of the signal present in each frequency bin. A bin with a single strong frequency will remain constant in level but a bin with noise (many frequencies) will fall with increasing resolution as the filter is narrowed. Note that a bin with a mix of a small peak (say a distortion component) and noise will reveal the peak better as the bins narrow and the noise is reduced to reveal the peak. Here is a measurement of the speaker in my notebook PC along with lots of ambient noise to add character to the measurement.
In the 1 octave resolution shot above we see the peak at 300 Hz only generally defined with a hint of a second peak at 60 Hz. The peak reads close to the broadband SPL level of 80 dB. The noise floor appears around 50 dB SPL when seen through 1 octave wide filters.
The 1/6 octave resolution shot above reveals the presence of a 2nd harmonic distortion component at 600 Hz and perhaps a 4th harmonic at 1200 Hz. A broad peak is seen near 60 Hz. The 300 Hz peak is seen unchanged at 80 dB SPL but the 60 Hz peak has fallen in apparent level from about 57 dB in the 1 octave measurement to about 53 dB in the 1/6 octave measurement. The noise floor appears around 44 dB SPL when seen through 1/6 octave filters.
Finally, in the 1/24 octave resolution shot above we see the 2nd and 4th harmonics sharply revealed. We also see that the 60 Hz peak is actually two separate peaks at 50 and 60 Hz. Note that the 300 Hz peak remains UNCHANGED at 80 dB SPL while the 2nd harmonic level also remains constant as the 4th drops slightly as noise is eliminated from its bin. The noise floor appears around 38 dB SPL when seen through 1/24 octave filters.
Most importantly, note that the peak amplitudes remain constant as the resolution is changed. The noise floor drops at higher resolution to reveal the smaller peaks.
In a subsequent post I will show what happens with a pink noise response as resolution is changed. I'l also show how to shift a pink noise measurement to calibrate it up to a fixed pitch SPL measurement. This will produce a continuous frequency response measurement that is calibrated to match the broadband SPL. This resultrs in a plot where the SPL is comparable to what see would get with a stepped sine wave measurement.
Regards,
John
John L. Murphy
Physicist/Audio Engineer
True Audio
http://www.trueaudio.com
While we're at this, has anyone found a good solution for a non-build-it-yourself crossover upgrade on contemporary Avatars? I emailed the Gary guy who was in the old thread on crossover upgrades before Avatar began using the improved ones, but he has not responded. The improved crossovers are better than the old ones, but I think the cab's overall tone could be further improved significantly with an even better crossover. I have already added a Selenium horn to mine, and frankly I think the crossover is keeping me from hearing all of the benefit of that better tweeter.
John,
Nobody here cares.
All they want to see is how a swept sine of the Avatar compares with a swept sine of other boxes. I encourage you to continue this on AVS because it is inappropriate on a bass forum.
Nobody here cares.
All they want to see is how a swept sine of the Avatar compares with a swept sine of other boxes. I encourage you to continue this on AVS because it is inappropriate on a bass forum.
The B210 in line-x arrived today. After letting it warm up in the house a bit, I plugged in my LMKII and all I can say is that it made me smile.
Meat and potatoes . . .yes.
Meat and potatoes . . .yes.
The B210 in line-x arrived today. After letting it warm up in the house a bit, I plugged in my LMKII and all I can say is that it made me smile.
Meat and potatoes . . .yes.
i have a LMII running into the same exact cab.
good to hear that you're enjoying it too.
Meat and potatoes is a goo description. My 212 is very fat sounding and fat, to the point that it lacks a lot of punch and just sounds "spread out" if that makes sense. Instead of sound being punched out of the cab it kinda of drips out, like older vintage cabs (reminds me of Black Sabbath bass tone). I was happy with it until I played some mesa boogie and other notably good cabs. Also for such a vintage tone its not very "warm" but has a consistently dry tone.
