B string frequency vs. Cab freq. level

[BassmanPaul]

If you go get a hearing test and can hear a 10hz sign wave I will pay for the test and give you $100. I am completely serious.

As referance, I have trained in the Indiana University Audiology Department. Not a single human out of over 7,000 has been able to reliably detect anything below 18hz. And 92% of people can't even notice a 25hz sign wave. At enough SPL you can feel it, but its more like someone moving their hand back and forth really fast.

If you flex the muscles in your hand really hard your hand shakes. Thats a higher pitch than 10hz.

Been there done that and BTW my signal generator gives a pure harmonic free sine wave.

I do have hearing aids and, after reading your post, I am beginning to understand why I am having so many problems with them!!!!

Paul

 

[Psycho Bass Guy]

harmonics.
Go task an audio test and listen to an sign wave of 30hz...you wont hear it...most likely.
Our ear/mind is trained to imagine the pitch that the harmonics come from. its science...not hearsay.

Hearing a sine wave at 30Hz and lower is no problem with a tone generator and enough speaker and amp power. You should reference a relative dBm if you want to qualify your statement properly.

As referance, I have trained in the Indiana University Audiology Department. Not a single human out of over 7,000 has been able to reliably detect anything below 18hz.

What was the control group? Was this a random sample of the population?

And 92% of people can't even notice a 25hz sign wave.

I don't believe that. If you can't hear a 25 Hz frequency in hearing test, it's because the isolation headphones aren't reproducing it. It cheating to use headphones that at best are 60Hz to 15,000 kHz (as most audiologist phones are) and then claim people can't 'hear' what the speakers can't reproduce.

If you flex the muscles in your hand really hard your hand shakes. Thats a higher pitch than 10hz.

That's not a pitch at all. That's periodic movement. They are NOT the same thing.

If you have a decent computer setup, try NewB or Maxxbass (both have demos)
They both exploit the missing fundamental effect. Which orchestra music and pipe organs have been using for centuries. Careful adding and arrangement of harmonics allows the ear to better hear a missing fundamental.

Pipe organs are some of the FEW instruments that have dedicated components SOLELY to reproduce extremely low fundamental notes. There's no "psychoacoutics" involved; they MAKE that low frequency.

 

[Ric5]

Play through a small amp live and mike the cab or run an xlr into a PA with 18" subwoofers. Let the subs produce the 20hz and 30hz and 40hz chest thumping lows.

 

[CapnSev]

I think a cab below 40Hz really interferes with the bass drum. Most bass drums are tuned somewhere around 35Hz, but I guess a lot of that depends on the size of the bass drum. I doubt that would hold true for a 20-incher or smaller.

 

[Arx]

If you go get a hearing test and can hear a 10hz sign wave I will pay for the test and give you $100. I am completely serious.

As referance, I have trained in the Indiana University Audiology Department. Not a single human out of over 7,000 has been able to reliably detect anything below 18hz. And 92% of people can't even notice a 25hz sign wave. At enough SPL you can feel it, but its more like someone moving their hand back and forth really fast.

If you flex the muscles in your hand really hard your hand shakes. Thats a higher pitch than 10hz.

There's a difference between noticing it on its own, and noticing it along with the harmonics.

I think it's more of a psychoacoustic filter mechanism. You might not notice a 30Hz sine wave at modest levels. Your ears are definitely much better at detecting harmonics. That doesn't mean you won't hear the difference between an open B string properly reproduced, and one missing the fundamental. The harmonics give your brain a hint to allow you to tune in on the low frequency a little better.

 

[VicDamone]

What is the frequency of a low B?

I'm looking for a new cab, and i mostly play my 4 string Fender. But a new sound in the band is calling to me to dust off my 5-stringer

So what frequency range do i need to look for?



Honestly, will a cab with these levels be good?

Frequency Response: 42Hz-3.3kHz
Sensitivity: 104dB SPL (1W/1m)


what does the sensitivity portion mean?

Most of your questions have been answered correctly. Unfortunately they have also been answered incorrectly.

For those of you who are giving second hand advise or even advise that your not quit sure of, adding an, 'I think, maybe, might try, I've heard', or what ever it takes to add credibility and honesty to your advise to someone who's about to lay out long green I'm sure would be much appreciated.

Or simply stick with subject matter that you have had direct experience with. Can you imagine how you come across to all the people who actually know this stuff?

Vic

 

[No Great Loss]

In reply to the original post, this about as simple as it gets. Copy it, bookmark it, whatever, but keep it around for easy reference.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

sam

 

[King David]

http://www.eminent-tech.com/music/30hztone.wav

I can hear it!

 

[improvpwnd]

If you can find one a PR410-HLF goes down to 29hz (-10) and 32hz (I think) at -3db

 

[will33]

I think a cab below 40Hz really interferes with the bass drum. Most bass drums are tuned somewhere around 35Hz, but I guess a lot of that depends on the size of the bass drum. I doubt that would hold true for a 20-incher or smaller.

This is a great point when trying to sit in the mix. A lot of soundguys will roll the bass guitar off around 60-70hz and leave the bottom open for kick drum. You can then hear both instruments distinctly instead of them stepping on each other. This is one of the reasons people say the Ampeg810 sits well in a mix. It starts to roll off higher up and reaches it's f3 by about 60hz.

 

[Arx]

I've had another interesting experience that demonstrates my previous explanation.

At home I have a pretty geeked out stereo. Instead of conventional passive crossovers on my speakers, I separate the audio bands with some very steep FIR filters in software, and run my subs, woofers, and tweeters each on their own output channels and amplifiers. I feed the frequencies below 70Hz (if I remember correctly) to a 15" speaker, 70-3000 to the 8" woofers and the rest to the tweeters.

The interesting thing is that at a normal listening level with only the subs running, I don't think most people would even hear it. (keep in mind this is a very steep filter. no harmonics going to the sub) You can if you know it's there and are listening specifically for it, but even then it seems very muffled and quiet.

What's weird, though, is that if I've got everything turned on except for the subwoofers it is immediately obvious that the bass is missing.

-Nick

 

[JimmyM]

Nothing weird about that IMHO.

 

[Arx]

Nothing weird about that IMHO.

Well, perhaps not weird, but unexpected.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

I I have played through some other amps at stores and I can tell a difference in how well they handle the B. Like I said it may not be night and day, but I can tell when it can hit it with some authority and not starting to fart out.

I think the question isn't so much whether a speaker can physically handle the low B, but rather, can it handle the power input that requires the reproduction of a low B. I had an Eden CX210 cabinet that could handle the low B at low volumes, but because it was only rated at 300 watts, it would clip at higher volume levels with the low B. It would sound fine if I slammed an open E, but notes on the low B clipped the speakers because I was driving my power amp's ouput over the power handling threshold of the Eden in order to reproduce those notes. Man, that was a great sounding cab! I had to get rid of it though, because if I clip a cab at gig volumes (and we are pretty conservative with stage volume), then there's no point in me using it.

As far as frequency reproduction - There really isn't an objectively correct answer. I know some guys want the fundamental to roll off on a low B, because it makes the notes "punch" more. I come more from that school of thought. I love how my low B punches rather than booms. I let the FOH handle those ultra low frequencies, anyways. Most cabs, though, roll off before the fundamental of the low B. One exception that I can think of is Acme.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I let the FOH handle those ultra low frequencies, anyways.

Standard practice with even the largest pro-touring PAs is to high pass the subs at 35 Hz. They do so to protect the drivers from over-excursion, and because the pros know that there's not enough program below 35 Hz to make having response down there useful. Most FOH engineers high-pass the bass no lower than 50 Hz.

 

[bassbrock]

I say check out the Acme Low B speaker (any of them, the Low B4 (4x10, B2 (2x10) or B1 (1x10). Interesting noone has suggested them yet in a 5-string Low B thread.

In my experience you won't find or make a speaker cab that can reproduce the sound of your Low B string on your 5-string bass any better than the Acme cabs. And I own five cabinets (used to own six!) of varying flavors from Acme. Never dissapointed!

http://www.acmebass.com/

Worth every penny IMHO!

 

[Arx]

I guess it all comes down to what you're using it for. For playing live shows at high volume, you may as well forget that bottom octave and a half or so. Your average PA is unable to play 30Hz at anywhere near the volume levels that concerts are usually played at. Even the 40Hz of the E is mostly if not completely gone. IMO the problem here is that concerts are usually way too loud, but I don't expect that'll be changing any time soon. As long as your cabinet does a bit lower than the PA micing it, it doesn't much matter. May as well save some weight.

People like me who aren't gigging, but want to sound really good in the living room will miss those low notes if they're not there.

Also, I really enjoy recordings that have all the low bass present, so there's definitely justification there as well.

Of course, if you're using DI, your cabinet is mostly moot anyways, monitoring aside.

 

[Ric5]

You don't hear 20hz as much as you feel it ...

 

[Rhythm5]

Standard practice with even the largest pro-touring PAs is to high pass the subs at 35 Hz. They do so to protect the drivers from over-excursion, and because the pros know that there's not enough program below 35 Hz to make having response down there useful. Most FOH engineers high-pass the bass no lower than 50 Hz.

+1 This has been my experience as well. Even if you had a cab that went down to 30Hz before rolling off, it wouldn't make your B string sound better in a live situation. Your ear really doesn't need to have input in that range to hear a good solid B string. Your brain has a way of filling in that missing information. I have played my 5 strings through many an Ampeg 810 cab and it sounds great although those cabinets are only rated down to about 58Hz. That's also why I never understand bass amps with a bass control that boost 30Hz. All it does is mud up your tone and damage the drivers in your speakers.

 

[improvpwnd]

That's also why I never understand bass amps with a bass control that boost 30Hz. All it does is mud up your tone and damage the drivers in your speakers.

+1!