That's frequency beating, not an aural illusion. The A0 is the frequency of the difference between the strings. I repeat, organ pipes PRODUCE the actual frequencies directly, not through beating or "psychoacoustics"
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B string frequency vs. Cab freq. level
- Thread starter iplaybasstexas
- Start date
That's frequency beating, not an aural illusion. The A0 is the frequency of the difference between the strings. I repeat, organ pipes PRODUCE the actual frequencies directly, not through beating or "psychoacoustics"
This is how Maxxbass and NewB work. The rearrange the harmonic structure. They don't boost the bass as people would expect. You can actually EQ out lower frequencies and still hear the bass. The RTA proves the bass is not there. Yet, you can hear it. The RTA does show more in the mid bass than you'd expect.
I see quite a few sound companies running with MaxxBCL's in their racks.
"The maximum range of human hearing includes sound frequencies from 15 to about 18,000 waves,or cycles, per second."
"Experiments have shown that a healthy young person hears all sound frequencies from approximately 20 to 20,000 hertz."
20 Hz will get you an octave down below the E string. Low B should be no problem.
"Experiments have shown that a healthy young person hears all sound frequencies from approximately 20 to 20,000 hertz."
20 Hz will get you an octave down below the E string. Low B should be no problem.
20hz is very hard to achieve - if manufacturers graphed their cabinet response across the spectrum - it would no where match their claims.
Plenty of places on the web that let you test out your hearing, including equal loudness contours
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html
Give it a try - at different levels. Let me know if it doesn't match what the Wikipedia, and other sites say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
To get 30hz, at the same level as other frequencies, you're going to need to crank the bass to match the curve.
I'm not sure if people are going to believe in auditory illusions, but they do exist, and dsp designers are creating them. Ears are more sensitive to distortion in the normal speaking range of frequencies, so there's a lot that can be done to fool the ear in ranges outside of this. Aural exciters, etc. have done this for years at the other end of the frequency spectrum.
Plenty of places on the web that let you test out your hearing, including equal loudness contours
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html
Give it a try - at different levels. Let me know if it doesn't match what the Wikipedia, and other sites say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
To get 30hz, at the same level as other frequencies, you're going to need to crank the bass to match the curve.
I'm not sure if people are going to believe in auditory illusions, but they do exist, and dsp designers are creating them. Ears are more sensitive to distortion in the normal speaking range of frequencies, so there's a lot that can be done to fool the ear in ranges outside of this. Aural exciters, etc. have done this for years at the other end of the frequency spectrum.
rockstarbassist
Inactive
I only play 5'ers, and I've really yet to come across a cab that can't do a B string well.
IME it's more about cab quality and construction overall as opposed to freq' responses.
However, my faves to "bring the boom" have been:
Accugroove Whappo Jr.
Eden 212XLT (current cab)
SWR Henry 8x8
I used to be in the camp, searching for ever-elusive "true" 30hz~ response on stage, and to be honest, live it just doesn't translate how you ever hope it will. I'd invest in some kick-ass subs and nice IEMs before I go crazy over cab freq response again. I have some killer custom made Westone's (IEMs) that handle my low B just fine.
IME it's more about cab quality and construction overall as opposed to freq' responses.
However, my faves to "bring the boom" have been:
Accugroove Whappo Jr.
Eden 212XLT (current cab)
SWR Henry 8x8
I used to be in the camp, searching for ever-elusive "true" 30hz~ response on stage, and to be honest, live it just doesn't translate how you ever hope it will. I'd invest in some kick-ass subs and nice IEMs before I go crazy over cab freq response again. I have some killer custom made Westone's (IEMs) that handle my low B just fine.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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This thread has reinforced what I had found when playing with software like PerfectBox and WinISD: One of the cabs listed at the beginning of this thread said it had a sensitivity of 104 db and claimed 45Hz-.
Those are marketing numbers. First of all, that's a very efficient sensitivity rating - suspect in and of itself. Eden typically claims 98 - 101 db, which strikes me as realistic. 104 db is twice as efficient as 101 db, which is not realistic. According to Bill Fitzmaurice (too lazy to verify) the Acme lists an F3 of 42 Hz. That's realistic given that it's a notoriously inefficient speaker. It reproduces low end at the expense of efficiency. A fair trade off for those who want serious low end reproduction.
When playing with speaker design programs and starting with a Eminience Delta 12LF, which is a fairly decent speaker, you'll typically see F3 at around 55 Hz. That's fine because it's also a fairly efficient speaker.
Just because the frequency drops -3db at 55 Hz doesn't mean that you don't get any response below that. I suspect that some of the fantasy frequency specs are where the cab drops off by -10db (F10). A true F3 of 55 Hz means that you'll hear the B string just fine because a lot of the harmonic content is above the fundamental. Additionally, I'd wager that given just a sine wave of low B you'd be very hard pressed to distinguish it from a low C. Your ear just can't discriminate pitches at that frequency. Add in some harmonic content and it becomes possible.
I love bass. I love low end, but I'm not going to cart a lot of gear for it. It takes a lot of cab and/or a lot of power to reproduce those super lows. Then the room turns to mud and you roll off the lower octave anyway. You don't get the efficiency back though. You're still carting around a lot of gear for the satisfaction of knowing that it'd be there if you weren't dialing it out.
KO
Those are marketing numbers. First of all, that's a very efficient sensitivity rating - suspect in and of itself. Eden typically claims 98 - 101 db, which strikes me as realistic. 104 db is twice as efficient as 101 db, which is not realistic. According to Bill Fitzmaurice (too lazy to verify) the Acme lists an F3 of 42 Hz. That's realistic given that it's a notoriously inefficient speaker. It reproduces low end at the expense of efficiency. A fair trade off for those who want serious low end reproduction.
When playing with speaker design programs and starting with a Eminience Delta 12LF, which is a fairly decent speaker, you'll typically see F3 at around 55 Hz. That's fine because it's also a fairly efficient speaker.
Just because the frequency drops -3db at 55 Hz doesn't mean that you don't get any response below that. I suspect that some of the fantasy frequency specs are where the cab drops off by -10db (F10). A true F3 of 55 Hz means that you'll hear the B string just fine because a lot of the harmonic content is above the fundamental. Additionally, I'd wager that given just a sine wave of low B you'd be very hard pressed to distinguish it from a low C. Your ear just can't discriminate pitches at that frequency. Add in some harmonic content and it becomes possible.
I love bass. I love low end, but I'm not going to cart a lot of gear for it. It takes a lot of cab and/or a lot of power to reproduce those super lows. Then the room turns to mud and you roll off the lower octave anyway. You don't get the efficiency back though. You're still carting around a lot of gear for the satisfaction of knowing that it'd be there if you weren't dialing it out.
KO
+1
When I listened to the 30hz wave yesterday, initially I listened through some headphones.
I must have mostly heard harmonics, it sounded musical to me and usable as a pitch.
When I listened again I ran it though my reference monitors and sub woofer.
It did not sound musical at all.
It moved more air than anything I've ever ran through that sub.
Still a cool effect but it was unrecognizable by me a musical pitch.
Unscientific I know, just my observation...
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
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A very astute one. Below about 60 Hz or so if you listen to a pure fundamental tone with no harmonics the pitch is indiscernable. It's only when the harmonics are present that pitch can be recognized. Also, it is the differing harmonic structures of different instruments that gives each its unique character. Otherwise one would not be able to tell the difference between a bass and a piano, or a violin and a piccolo. Or a trumpet and a human voice, for that matter.
Rather than just saying 'whatever' and going away no more informed than you were before you might want to consider learning how musical tones function, as well as how the tools we use work with those tones. For instance, a high-pass filter does not eradicate all material below its corner frequency. It attenuates those frequencies, in the case of a 1st order filter by 6dB per octave, with a 2nd order filter by 12dB per octave, and so forth.
If you can hear the low E of a 4 string bass, then you are hearing 41,2 Hz.
A piano can go down to 28hz if I'm not wrong.
The "normal" of a hearing range is 20Hz-20,000Hz. Try a sine wave with 20Hz in Sound Forge or Audacity, or any similar.
With good earphones of course.
I can hear 20 Hz perfectly. I can hear 18kHz perfectly. I can't with 25kHz.
20kHz I'm not sure, so hard to tell.
No, you're hearing many harmonics including 82.4 Hz, 123.6 Hz, 164.8 Hz, 206 Hz, 247.2 Hz, and so on. You may or may not be hearing the fundamental, depending on the equipment you play through.
one way to hear mostly the fundamental tone of the low E is to pluck the string right in the middle of it'r lenght. That would be near the 12th fret. That would produce a near-sine wave with the fundamental freq. you will recognize the sound produced and the one from the sine synth maker are very similar.
Same procedure with low B.
This is a simple experiment and has an interesting phisics theory behind it. You may enjoy reading as well as I did.
Cabs have a fundamental frequency as well. This freq. gives you an accented reproduction of the sound. That's nice, BUT any requency below it will be highly atenuated in volume.
Most of the times I've tested speaker cabs I found it very dificult to "find" the fundamental tone.
My guess would be that the cab threadOP was referring to will work much better with a 4stringbass tuned EADG than a 5 or 6 with a low B.
But I would test it with the B string definitely, it may suprise us anyway.
alexclaber
Commercial User
Cabs have a tuning frequency below which response drops at 24dB/octave ported or 12dB/octave sealed. This frequency will only be accentuated if the cab is ported and unusually large.
All those trying to find out what 20Hz sounds like by listening through headphones or hi-fi speakers are far more likely to be hearing 40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz, etc overtones due to speaker distortion. The only way to reproduce frequencies this low is with a high quality sealed subwoofer or a sub that is tuned very low.
Pluck the B string over the 12th fret and with most rigs you're more likely to hear the 3rd harmonic (93Hz) content than the 31Hz content, and similarly with the E string.
Alex
Just for the record, here are Acme's "published" specs. I know they publish any SPL charts but for the sake of this discussion here...
So while they may have an F3 of 41Hz, they are only 6 dB down at 31Hz. A lot lower volume, yes, but definitely still there. I personally have proved this with my sine wave generator and my handheld RTA.
So while they may have an F3 of 41Hz, they are only 6 dB down at 31Hz. A lot lower volume, yes, but definitely still there. I personally have proved this with my sine wave generator and my handheld RTA.
You can hear low frequencies just fine through a pair of GOOD headphones.
20Hz is very low, and hard to identify. 30's not too hard if it's reasonably loud.
Agreed. Plucking on the 12th will give you mostly odd harmonics, though it will take out the 2nd harmonic and will probably make the fundamental easier to recognize. It's important to know that it's definitely not even close to a pure sine wave though.
The only way you're likely to get a pure sine is by generating one on a computer, or a synthesizer.
-Nick
