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B string frequency vs. Cab freq. level

#41
For all of you questioning the effect of a well projected low B you might want to take in an evening with Phil Lesh and Friends to listen and feel for yourself. Both his Meyer Labs stage rig and the PA provide the air and deep body associated with the portrayal of the low B. The PA doesn't have any problems confusing the kick with the Bass and judging by the bass response, it doesn't appear to be rolled off at 50Hz.

Sadly the quality of sound associated with the Lesh show may be an exception but it does prove doability.

Of course his entire system is a far cry from what us more pedestrian players would ever dream of using on a daily basis. It's still very possible to assemble a system, whether for the back line or the front of the house, that has these qualities on a much smaller scale.

Meyer Sound Labs, Bag End, QSC, ServOdrive, Sound Physics Labs, to name a few are, fortunately, not available at your local guitarded center. Going deep ain't cheap but it's not as difficult as some here claim.

Vic
 
#42
A couple of tidbits from my acoustics training several years ago:

1. The lowest frequency humans are accepted as being able to hear varies with loudness. We can hear 20Hz and above if it's mighty loud, but that jumps to 50Hz and above if it's the sound is quiet. Below this figure, if we hear anything we hear it as individual pulses. however ... when we hear a musical tone we're hearing a range of harmonics including the fundamental. If you think you can hear 10Hz it's almost definitely not the case - you're probably hearing some distortion artifacts in the amps and speakers, which your ear cleverly interprets as a 10Hz signal. I guess I'm saying "I'm with JonathonD and SeaMonkey"

2. Most age-related hearing loss occurs in the high range, not the low. Also, most damage-related hearing loss is high frequency too, but it's based on the frequencies you've been hearing too much of.

3. I get a different answer to BluesCat for the fundamental frequency of Low B. I get 30.8 Hz. Here's how:
If every octave of pitch is a doubling of frequency, then every semitone is a "two to the power of a twelfth" of frequency. That is, the number that you have to square then square again then cube (!!) in order to get 2. In excel you spell it "=2^(1/12)". Take an A at 440Hz and divide it by 8 (that is, to drop it 3 octaves to a bass's A note) then start dividing by this number repeatedly and you get:
A 55 Hz
G# 51.9130872 Hz
G 48.9994295 Hz
F# 46.24930284 Hz
F 43.65352893 Hz
E 41.20344461 Hz
D# 38.89087297 Hz
D 36.70809599 Hz
C# 34.64782887 Hz
C 32.70319566 Hz
B 30.86770633 Hz

4. Note that most of what you hear when listening to a low B is the 2nd, 3rd and 4th harmonics. So the cab's ability to reproduce 62Hz, 93Hz and 123 Hz is more important than it's ability at 30.8 Hz. A "bass" knob centred at 100Hz will still effect your B string,

Use wisely!
 
#44
And I should add that if your cab is not tuned low enough and/or your speakers have insufficient Xmax then trying to get good response down to low B fundamental will result in increased distortion. When one hears complaints of reproduction of the very lowest fundamentals resulting in a boomy sound it is usually that this increased distortion is causing extra output in the ~150Hz range and thus boom and mud.

Alex
 
#45
Rhythm5 said:
That's also why I never understand bass amps with a bass control that boost 30Hz.
Click to expand...
It's most useful when turned down to cut the lowermost ocatve, to get rid of the mud and gain additional headroom for both the amp and speakers. I run mine at -6dB, with the 25 Hz slider pulled all the way down.
 
#47
billfitzmaurice said:
It's most useful when turned down to cut the lowermost ocatve, to get rid of the mud and gain additional headroom for both the amp and speakers. I run mine at -6dB, with the 25 Hz slider pulled all the way down.
Click to expand...

+1... players always forget that these active tone controls are CUT and boost. There is nothing more useful to me than a shelving bass control with a very low shelving start point (40 hz or lower). The tone controls on the Markbass heads, the CarvinB1500 and the Glock heads, for example, give you variable control over both deep bass and low mids/upper bass are wonderful for sculpting a deep but punchy tone that is still full and pleasing, but that doesn't boom or sit right on the bass drum.

For some reason, many players are stuck with the idea that active controls are only for boosting. I've found that cutting deep bass can result in more 'useful' bass reaching the audience in certain situations, as you point out.

Edit: Also... on the other hand, if you do have a cab that has a -3db roll-off just a touch higher than you like, a deeply voiced shelving control can nicely roll that back in without putting too much hi bass/low mids in the tone, which are probably over-represented in those cabs anyway.
 
#48
VicDamone said:
The PA doesn't have any problems confusing the kick with the Bass and judging by the bass response, it doesn't appear to be rolled off at 50Hz.


Vic
Click to expand...
Appearances are deceiving, and your ears are the least definitive measuring devices. I haven't done RTAs of Phil, but I have done them of the 'Wailers', the act that defines hit you in the chest bass.

Wailers.jpg


SPL is maximum at 50 Hz, down 10dB at 40 Hz, down 18dB at 32 Hz.
 
#49
I care at least as much about sensitivity as I do low frequency handling. On five string, I'm happy with a cab that can efficiently reproduce frequencies below 60 Hz. An F3 in the mid 40's is perfectly good to me. I don't want to carry a rack with a power amp. 500 watts, four 10's or two 12's and an efficient cab that do ~45Hz should be enough to get me through most nights. If I need more power than that something's wrong: The PA should be doing the work more and/or the stage volume is too high.

Trading off efficiency to get more low end than a cab with an F3 of 45 Hz isn't worth it to me.

KO
 
#50
This has been a very interesting thread! It really helps explain why pro sound engineers can get good kick drum and bass guitar mixes that mesh well and why ametuer sound engineers end up with low end in their mixes that sounds like undefined boom. It also somewhat explains why scooped guitar tone sounds like ass.
 
#53
billfitzmaurice said:
Standard practice with even the largest pro-touring PAs is to high pass the subs at 35 Hz. They do so to protect the drivers from over-excursion, and because the pros know that there's not enough program below 35 Hz to make having response down there useful. Most FOH engineers high-pass the bass no lower than 50 Hz.
Click to expand...



billfitzmaurice said:
Appearances are deceiving, and your ears are the least definitive measuring devices. I haven't done RTAs of Phil, but I have done them of the 'Wailers', the act that defines hit you in the chest bass.

Wailers.jpg


SPL is maximum at 50 Hz, down 10dB at 40 Hz, down 18dB at 32 Hz.
Click to expand...

Bill, I' sure I'm missing something in your posts. Is, "engineers high-pass the bass no lower than 50 Hz" the same as, "SPL is maximum at 50 Hz, down 10dB at 40 Hz, down 18dB at 32 Hz"? Are you saying it's filtered off at 50Hz or down 10dB @ 40Hz?

I may have incorrectly assumed that, "no lower", meant that nothing past 50Hz was being reinforced. Listening to the Lesh setup clearly portray detailed and robust signal below 50Hz is somewhat contradictory (I'm unable to support my experience with a real time analysis of the event). While it's still a rock guitar band the Lesh event is not extremely heavy footed sound and the Bass is wonderfully reproduced.

I'm in no way challenging your statements but I'm obviously reading them incorrectly. Sorry.

Vic
 
#54
alexclaber said:
The Acmes really do a fine job of reproducing all the low note content. The caveat is that in very loud bands you'll need a lot of cabs. At more sensible volumes their high real world power handling means that the low sensitivity is rarely a problem.

Alex
Click to expand...

+1 on the Acmes

As I stated in my post, I have five Acme cabs. Pretty much enough to get me through any gig, large and small.

So the real question is, how large of a gig are you intending to play?

1 Acme B4 / 2 Acme B2 - Small to Medium Church, Club or Bar
2 Acme B4 cabs stacked and 2400 watts - pretty much ANY venue except stadiums, arenas or coliseums. Add additional B4 cabs to taste.

All combined I have a 16x10 Acme stack. When all put together I simply can't stand to be in front of the cabs, it is beyond stupid loud.

I love all the 'science' spouted back on forth on here, but I just want to weigh in again that in my experience the Acme Low B are the best speakers you can buy or build to reproduce your 5-string bass accurately.

I've also built Bill Fitzmaurice Tuba subs that sound freakin awesome in my PA... but my Acme's go lower.
 
#55
VicDamone said:
Bill, I' sure I'm missing something in your posts. Is, "engineers high-pass the bass no lower than 50 Hz" the same as, "SPL is maximum at 50 Hz, down 10dB at 40 Hz, down 18dB at 32 Hz"? Are you saying it's filtered off at 50Hz or down 10dB @ 40Hz?
Click to expand...
I didn't look at the board or the DSPs to see how they were set, but that's immaterial as far as the RTA goes. It shows the average output in the FOH 150 feet from the stage, and despite bass that would take your breath away the content rolls off below 50 Hz. This is not an isolated result, I've never measured any act that didn't have the lows roll off no lower than 50 Hz. Also, this is the full band, and most of the content below 60 Hz is drums. The primary power bandwidth for electric bass lies roughly between 60 and 100 Hz. Guys who insist that their instruments are cranking it out below 50 Hz are usually off by about an octave.

the Lesh setup clearly portray detailed and robust signal below 50Hz is somewhat contradictory (I'm unable to support my experience with a real time analysis of the event).
Click to expand...
Without measuring it there's no way of knowing that. If so it would be most unusual, and IMO would sound really bad.
 
#56
Here's an exercise you can do in order to prove that you're hearing harmonics and this is used by people working on organ pipes.

Start on the E on the 12th fret of the E string and pluck fifths simultaneously slowly getting down 1/2 step everytime. If you concentrate on hearing the lower octave fundamental, by the time you hit the A and E on the 5th and 7th fret of the E and A strings, you'll swear you're hearing an absolute A0 as if you'd play an open B string tuned down a whole step.
 
#57
iplaybasstexas said:
What is the frequency of a low B?

I'm looking for a new cab, and i mostly play my 4 string Fender. But a new sound in the band is calling to me to dust off my 5-stringer :bassist:

So what frequency range do i need to look for?



Honestly, will a cab with these levels be good?

Frequency Response: 42Hz-3.3kHz
Sensitivity: 104dB SPL (1W/1m)


what does the sensitivity portion mean?
Click to expand...

Do you have the ability to go out and check cabs? That's what I'd recommend vs. relying on specs. For example, your question about will a cab with these levels be good... who knows? It say next to nothing about how it's reproducing that frequency range. You could be doing Borders books gigs with a five and the Lesh/Myers system should be adequate for that;)

I didn't think you were asking for a specific cab recommendation. The Acme recommendations for example don't always go into the limitations of the cabs. What's your amplification budget. Where will you be playing? Any PA support? Etc.

There are cabs that go low but not loud. Cabs that go very loud but not really low... but they could still work very well even with a low B. In my experience. I've been using a smallish two cab rig for years that people have told me shouldn't work. Fortunately I didn't rely on their wisdom when I made my decision;)
 
#58
billfitzmaurice said:
I didn't look at the board or the DSPs to see how they were set, but that's immaterial as far as the RTA goes. It shows the average output in the FOH 150 feet from the stage, and despite bass that would take your breath away the content rolls off below 50 Hz. This is not an isolated result, I've never measured any act that didn't have the lows roll off no lower than 50 Hz. Also, this is the full band, and most of the content below 60 Hz is drums. The primary power bandwidth for electric bass lies roughly between 60 and 100 Hz. Guys who insist that their instruments are cranking it out below 50 Hz are usually off by about an octave.

Without measuring it there's no way of knowing that. If so it would be most unusual, and IMO would sound really bad.
Click to expand...

Well, now you've got me truly confused. How is that Lesh's Bass does not sound rolled off from first position on the E string on down? His amplitude is very similar to my Lakland 55-94 via my Bag End ELF (which is not at all rolled off) but on a larger scale.

Exactly what is it we're hearing being played on the E string through our equipment if we're, "off by an octave"?

Vic
 
#59
i believe that bill is saying that what you presume to be hearing (that sounds like 30 hz to your ears), is really 60hz. without an rta of the signal and cab specs that say 20khz to 30hz response, then there's the bass knob on your amp that has a 30 or 40 hz label under it. we naturally assume we are hearing 30hz when we aren't. even the famed acme's have a published (and i believe to be quite accurate) f3 of 42hz if i remember right. if a b-string is 30 hz the acme shouldn't be able to handle it, but they do, along with a slew of other cabs that don't come anywhere close to going as low.
 
#60
VicDamone said:
Exactly what is it we're hearing being played on the E string through our equipment if we're, "off by an octave"?

Vic
Click to expand...
You're hearing a 41 Hz fundamental and all the harmonics of that fundamental, amounting to over fifty frequencies spanning some eight octaves. The level of the 41 Hz fundamental is only slightly higher than that of the second harmonic at 82 Hz, and is far less than that of the combined levels of the 2nd and 3rd harmonics.

b-string is 30 hz the acme shouldn't be able to handle it, but they do, along with a slew of other cabs that don't come anywhere close to going as low.
Click to expand...
They handle it because the actual level of 30Hz program is at least 10dB lower than that at 60Hz, a 10:1 power ratio. Here again, do an RTA and you'll see that what you perceive as a lot of output at 30 Hz is actually a lot of output at 60 and 90 Hz.
 

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