Backing Vocal Challenges in the Weekend Player Space

[drpepper]

For too many bands, backup vocals are an afterthought. It's not. Would you allow the guitarist just to strum an amplified acoustic guitar just because he wanted to play something?

Yes. The value of backing vocals often seems underappreciated. It's interesting how different bands handle them. Our lead singer was out listening to a band that pretty popular and plays higher tier rooms and found it really strange that they do ZERO harmonies...backing vocals consist entirely of a small handful of unison lines/gang vocals...go figure. Done serviceably well, two-part harmonies are a big overall boost, and three-part can be a real chef kiss.

As far as what I'd "allow"...I think it's a bit more nuanced than that reduction.

 

[klyph]

as much as I'd love to have the band decision (that he would happily go along with) be to just not allow him a mic, that kind of thing just isn't realistic.

This is a classic all or nothing (behavior) situation. If you think he will readily accede, then the answer is “nothing “. If he can’t be trusted with a mic, that’s kind of the end of the story.

I don’t rate as a bassist, particularly, but I sang a lot in my youth and in my sixth decade can still sing in three octaves. I recently had some very serious health problems which meant I couldn’t really generate enough lung power to effectively sing in tenor or falsetto range.

I was lucky enough to still be able to gig with my cover band while in rehab/recovery, and I’m back singing (although I am not 100% of what I was, and may never be). It helps that the lead singer/BL works in a rehab facility and former patients make up some of our fans.

For eight months I couldn’t manage vocal projection. Sometimes I left the mic at home, but there were still one or two parts I could manage, so I had to exercise the discipline of not singing parts I knew, and used to sing. Now, it was a pretty easy thing to do because if I tried the high part in “Come and get your love” in full voice, (which I am back to doing) I would double over in a coughing fit onstage. But there were other songs where I just couldn’t give the notes the support they needed, and I could hear myself go flat, which was a new and frightening experience. I considered getting a vocal coach (and still am doing so) but never pulled the trigger. Luckily, time, patience, and an overall return to better health have helped.

You can’t give a person good judgment, and shamings and beatings have rather fallen out of vogue. If he is open to guidance, then give it to him.

If that means no more singing, then so be it. The only other option I can really see is to make him a “set list” of songs he has demonstrated ability and to limit his vocal participation to those songs! Consequences? I’ll leave that to you fellas…

 

[drpepper]

I would guess he doesn't hear himself very well in the monitors. In-ears might help.

Good thought, but he uses IEMs. I think there's a deeper problem...the way he hears what he hears.

 

[drpepper]

If he is open to guidance, then give it to him...

He is open to and appreciative of guidance. One thing I've personally done is taken on the role harmony breakdown guy, and I make mp3s with harmonies broken out. Make one for him that repeats just his line and one with the other lines without his, so he can practice separately (to hopefully get some muscle memory and pitch persistence) and in context his line missing.

An example that I did specifically for him

 

[Wasnex]

I think that in terms of backing vocals in the space that includes weekend player bands, two ways (Captain Obvious here) band members can differ is in level of desire to sing (some don't want to sing, some are willing, and some really want to) and ability (some flat out can't sing, some can but may take more effort to learn and memorize harmony parts, and others can both sing and pick up harmonies naturally). You have what you have and you work with it. What I've thought more about is how different combinations of desire and ability determine where successes and difficulties occur and determine how much effort goes into achieving or dealing with them. I see there being combinations that are negative, neutral and positive. Someone who is capable but reluctant for example, takes effort in coaxing possibly...positive result/higher effort. Someone less capable but who really wants to sing should be able to improve with practice...positive result/effort largely on them. Someone who can't sing, recognizes that and doesn't try is at least net neutral, positive if they're not needed because it's settled out of the gate/no effort.

What I'm curious about is experiences with the situation where a band member wants to sing...badly, but just never reaches the level where their singing is consistently a benefit? They put in effort, the band puts in effort, but it just doesn't work.

We have someone who regardless of effort, practice, drilling harmonies at rehearsal just never gets to the point of any real consistency, overall. He still frequently sings off key, has trouble finding his note at gigs even after getting them in rehearsing, and his voice simply doesn't blend particularly well (there is a quality that seems inherent in it that sounds like someone casually singing along with music in the shower or their car and the music is suddenly taken away or like a random audience member got a hold of one of a mic and is in the mix). His voice is naturally baritone and he says he can't sing falsetto at all "Nothing comes out!" which is limiting to say the least for rock and pop backing vocals...all those great baritone parts.

He'll often decide on the fly to double another line, almost always the lead (often an octave down) because melody lines are usually the most familiar. When unison isn't really unison it just creates crap. We've worked up things based on his being okay with certain parts...like "Sing here but not here," but during gigs he'll sometimes add vocals anyway because he honestly seems to think it sounds good...

Which is a big challenge here because he doesn't seem to be able to hear the problems in real-time or recordings. Playing back a recording with something egregious, which we thought might help, doesn't seem to make it click for him...most people don't like hearing the sound of their own recorded voice whether good or bad singing let along hearing what is actually bad. I don't think there's any ego or malice involved. I genuinely think he believes it sounds good which doesn't make sense because, not that he has perfect pitch or anything, he can clearly hear instrument pitch and tone just fine.

I know this is TB and the obvious answer is "Fire him and the drummer", "Just tell him his singing is crap and take his mic away", or "I wouldn't stay in a band that let that continue"...as much as I'd love to have the band decision (that he would happily go along with) be to just not allow him a mic, that kind of thing just isn't realistic. There are friendships involved, some going back to childhood, and the fact is that there are also songs where he does have his parts down and they add something...but that creates the next thing which comes from him having a mic and not having his itch scratched by what he does well enough, which is drawing the line himself...he's become a habitual line stepper.

As I've thought through this, I'm guessing that the band member who wants badly to sing but can't AND can't hear that they can't is probably a rarity versus other combinations...but I'm still curious if others actually do deal with the same thing...and anything that might have worked. Brutal and blunt solutions obviously can and do work in theory and reality but aren't on the table for us. Success in channeling that enthusiasm or to keep someone from improvising extra vocals without any butt-hurt? A pipe-dream? It seems possible that this just one of those situations where the only actual solutions come at the cost of some damage?

Creating a dedicated member role in the band for a sound engineer has been discussed and could incidentally help some for this in simply having control in burying certain vocals, but it wouldn't really be viable for this band overall and there a multiple standing annual gigs (where this matters the most) where I just don't see how we'd be able to use our engineer if we had one.

At some point you need to cut your losses IMHO. That could simply mean the PA is adjusted so the audience does not hear the weak singer. Ideally the other musicians don't hear him either. Back in the day it was not unusual to see concert footage with lots of guest guitar players wailing away, but you only heard the main players and the familiar parts.

My range is pretty limited and I usually don't have a falsetto. My falsetto visits occasionally and adds something like a major 6th to my range. Visits are infrequent and it never hangs around for long, so it's a bad strategy to try and use it. I was able to sing hillbilly harmony in a country band, but not able to cover as many songs as I wanted due to my range. I worked hard to learn my harmony lines note for note. On one occasion I asked the lead vocalist to displace a rhythm so I could sing and play bass, but usually I tried to nail one of the original lines.

I have encouraged fellow group members to sing. I worked with a really good guitarist who had a decent speaking voice, but his singing voice was weak and off key. He tried for an extended time and learned his lines, but we eventually gave up because it sounded bad. He was okay with not singing .

Many of the people I worked with were able to do backing vocals very easily, but they always made it up on the fly rather than learning and sticking to a part. I find this a bit irritating because they might step on my part, which I have to work hard to master. I also find it irritating because this approach can easily result in harmonies that make the song sound weird. IME it's generally a waste of time to try and get them to stick to their part or sing the original harmony. They want to do what comes easily, rather than put in the effort.

As with many types of situations, we rarely get what we want. You can make an effort to improve the situation, but either things get better or they don't. If the problem does not start resolve in a reasonable time, my advice is generally to assess the situation VS your needs and expectations. Then make one of two acceptable choices:
1. (Stay) If you stay, accept responsibility for the choice and make the best of it. Accept the situation and adjust your mental outlook to be positive.
2. (Break ties with the problem) Cut your losses and find a greener pasture or stay and fire the offending individual(s).

I find the third option unacceptable.
3. Stay, whine, and constantly complain--This can generate a toxic environment. IME: Plenty of people think this is a great choice.

 

[longfinger]

He is open to and appreciative of guidance. One thing I've personally done is taken on the role harmony breakdown guy, and I make mp3s with harmonies broken out. Make one for him that repeats just his line and one with the other lines without his, so he can practice separately (to hopefully get some muscle memory and pitch persistence) and in context his line missing.

An example that I did specifically for him

" His voice is naturally baritone and he says he can't sing falsetto at all "Nothing comes out!" which is limiting to say the least for rock and pop backing vocals...all those great baritone parts."

When I read the above, I already had an idea of what was happening, and then when I listened to your GarageBand practice guide (great work by the way), I was confirmed.

If the guy is a natural baritone, your "low harmony" in the GB YouTube, is way too high. You have middle C and D , It would be natural for him to sing if it was a full octave lower. Baritone voices crack at middle C.

That sound creates a big space at the bottom between the 3 voices, so then...

Take "high harmony" and bring it down one full octave (G3 and F3) to give to the baritone, then have the "low harmony" be the new "high harmony", for that tenor singer (D4 and C4). The total will have an open voiced chord, a Drop 2 voicing of your current arrangement.

This problem seems to be to be a part writing / arrangement problem at core.

Here is a big issue.

On albums, often the same person, lead singer, recorded the harmonies to themselves, and so with the same voice have tight harmonies with close position chords in all the same vocal range. But with different singers, baritone, tenor, alto.. you need bigger spacing between the parts.

Your vocal parts aren't good for your group! They are too tight and close together, which only works if all the singers are naturally the same vocal type (ie tenor), which according to your OP is not the case.


Think I it this way.
If an alto saxophonist recorded a song, and did the lead and two close position lower harmonies all in the high alto range, and then he plays live with a tenor and baritone saxophonist, it would be silly to expect the baritone to sound good playing those alto harmonies at the pitch recorded. It has to be re-arranged to fit the ensemble.


I suggest making Drop 2 voicing of your above arrangement and finding out how that goes. Then continue with drop 2 as I suspect it will work better.

instead of
low to high : D G Bb to C F A; you change it to. G D Bb to F C A. Close position triads in 2nd inversion become Drop 2 voiced triads in root position.


His notes should mainly be in the range of A2 to A3 (110Hz to 220Hz).

That will help a lot. IMO, your arrangements are setting him up to fail.

BTW, it doesn't matter what the original recording harmony voicings are, arrange the song so your group sounds as amazing as possible.

 

[Wasnex]

The fellow could probably sing if he worked at it

Effort is not always enough. IME, vocal ability varies significantly. One person may find it intuitive to sing, while the next may find singing well to be impossible.

There is also the matter of the breadth and center of one's vocal range. A baritone with a limited range is not ideal for pop background vocals.

The practical limits of my singing range is about C to G. With hard work I could sing reliably as long as part stayed in this range.

If someone can't even hear when they sound bad, it's probably a lost cause.

 

[Wasnex]

I agree 1000%; that is the way things should be. And that's a very enviable position to be in a band surrounded by vocal talent.

(This is just general response, not aimed) I'm interested in solutions that move the ball while preserving the relationships involved. I realize that isn't everyone's priority, and that's fine. I also believe it's realistic that the odds of someone posting an idea that makes me say "We never thought of that!" are probably low...but that's why I ask, not because we're helpless or hopeless. It's possible and sometimes different perspectives, which I appreciate getting here, or a different way of putting something that's been said helps with reframing and zeroing in root issues...even if that doesn't change the apparent options, which I said from the start there might not be one to come out of this round of dealing with this.

And I think the magnitude of the problem or at least its impact might get overblown in the context of a forum post. This isn't something that derails every rehearsal or every gig. At rehearsals, it means some more time spent on vocal sections. With gigs, the big picture is it affects a handful of songs and tends to come up once in a while (but repeatedly). It's front of mind now because of one of those once in a whiles...we had a gig where foh was inexcusably terrible. For some songs, it was infuriating to hear the recording...just no figuring out what they could have been thinking. They had his vocal louder than anyone else's. That wasn't his fault. Even if he'd hit every note perfectly, it still would have been an insanely bad mix but, it still would have been bad with the spotlight being on his voice.

That said, what I'm wrestling with most is that this is a perception problem. I take from the responses that I was right to think it's probably not a common issue that someone who doesn't/can't consistently sing well ALSO has a great desire to sing. Personally, I can't really wrap my head around how that works...I recognize that I am generally able to sing on key, I'm able to find most harmonies and blend, and I like to believe that I can recognize when I fail in these things, especially with the proof of a recording in front of me. I recognize that my own voice does not consistently have timbre for lead vocals though I've reluctantly done some being psychologically supported by the belief that my bandmates wouldn't have me sing just on some principle like burden-sharing even if it made the band sound bad while I was singing. From that, it's difficult for me to put myself in the position of someone who truly believes something is working when that's not what everyone else hears.

So, yes, putting it down to perception, @Freddy T , it might be a matter of finding the way or person to get through to him that he can't rely on his own perception (and feedback from the wife just intending to support him)...that without improvement, it sounds bad. So instead of the two steps forward one step back thing we have going, his efforts could more often mean two steps forward are two steps forward.

This suggests the problem is as much about the mix as about the singing.

PBS frequently shows oldies concerts. Frequently most of the hired guns are singing along with the lead, but most of them don't even have a mic in front of them. Just because you sing along does not mean you have to be heard.

You might explore what the problem singer thinks about this. Maybe it's okay for him to sing and not be heard. Maybe he wants a mic, but it doesn't need to be plugged in. Maybe he wants a mic and a monitor, but he doesn't care if anyone else hears him.

 

[Wasnex]

You can’t give a person good judgment, and shamings and beatings have rather fallen out of vogue. If he is open to guidance, then give it to him.

If that means no more singing, then so be it. The only other option I can really see is to make him a “set list” of songs he has demonstrated ability and to limit his vocal participation to those songs! Consequences? I’ll leave that to you fellas…

 

[brianrost]

Vocals has always been a problem for me. I’ve never taken any voice lessons, if I had done so 50 years ago I’d probably be singing like a bird. While it didn’t really help with harmonizing, the few years I sang as a baritone in the church choir helped me a lot because the two other baritones were rock solid. I learned how to use my diaphragm and figure out what my range was. It was easy to tell when I was in tune with them because of the phenomenon where unison notes sound bigger when they’re all in tune.

As it is, since the pandemic my voice has gone down the toilet…very hoarse and raspy sounding and not as loud as before, either. My doctor says it’s normal for my age. Back a decade or so ago I was in a trio where the BL wanted three part harmonies and we rehearsed every single week. I was still shaky at gigs but I could tell when I was out of key and shut up if I was too far off. I still do “gang vocals” where needed.

The weakness of so many local bands is the vocals. It doesn’t do anyone any good to have a backup vocalist who can’t sing. For that matter, lead vocalists who can’t sing aren't helping, either.

The backup singer I find really interesting is Keith Richards. He was an outstanding soprano in an award winning boy's choir When his voice broke, that went out the window. Lots of people hate the sound of his lead vocals but just like his backups he’s in tune.

 

[g1303bk]

Effort is not always enough. IME, vocal ability varies significantly. One person may find it intuitive to sing, while the next may find singing well to be impossible.

There is also the matter of the breadth and center of one's vocal range. A baritone with a limited range is not ideal for pop background vocals.

The practical limits of my singing range is about C to G. With hard work I could sing reliably as long as part stayed in this range.

If someone can't even hear when they sound bad, it's probably a lost cause.

I'm referring to teaching the fellow to sing one note to complete the triad and be part of a harmony.
He needs a starting point in order to be successful. It starts with focused effort rather then hooting and hollering.
If that blows up then the experiment is complete and he doesn't sing or gets replaced.

 

[Geddaric]

Make sure he can hear himself.
Record practices. Listen to them with everyone`s equipment off (eliminate "wanking"). Listen and say "Let`s focus on what we`re doing vocally".
And then finally............honesty.
It may sting a little but you're shooting for an overall product and if the vocals suck, it won`t matter how good the band is.
We are supposedly adults so if we treat other as such, we should all be able to take in some constructive criticism.
If after listening he can`t tell something is a little off, point it out. Put on your big boy pants and make a decision.

Maybe give the guy a solo song to perform so he can hear himself.

 

[ThinCrappyTone2]

I think that in terms of backing vocals in the space that includes weekend player bands, two ways (Captain Obvious here) band members can differ is in level of desire to sing (some don't want to sing, some are willing, and some really want to) and ability (some flat out can't sing, some can but may take more effort to learn and memorize harmony parts, and others can both sing and pick up harmonies naturally). You have what you have and you work with it. What I've thought more about is how different combinations of desire and ability determine where successes and difficulties occur and determine how much effort goes into achieving or dealing with them. I see there being combinations that are negative, neutral and positive. Someone who is capable but reluctant for example, takes effort in coaxing possibly...positive result/higher effort. Someone less capable but who really wants to sing should be able to improve with practice...positive result/effort largely on them. Someone who can't sing, recognizes that and doesn't try is at least net neutral, positive if they're not needed because it's settled out of the gate/no effort.

What I'm curious about is experiences with the situation where a band member wants to sing...badly, but just never reaches the level where their singing is consistently a benefit? They put in effort, the band puts in effort, but it just doesn't work.

We have someone who regardless of effort, practice, drilling harmonies at rehearsal just never gets to the point of any real consistency, overall. He still frequently sings off key, has trouble finding his note at gigs even after getting them in rehearsing, and his voice simply doesn't blend particularly well (there is a quality that seems inherent in it that sounds like someone casually singing along with music in the shower or their car and the music is suddenly taken away or like a random audience member got a hold of one of a mic and is in the mix). His voice is naturally baritone and he says he can't sing falsetto at all "Nothing comes out!" which is limiting to say the least for rock and pop backing vocals...all those great baritone parts.

He'll often decide on the fly to double another line, almost always the lead (often an octave down) because melody lines are usually the most familiar. When unison isn't really unison it just creates crap. We've worked up things based on his being okay with certain parts...like "Sing here but not here," but during gigs he'll sometimes add vocals anyway because he honestly seems to think it sounds good...

Which is a big challenge here because he doesn't seem to be able to hear the problems in real-time or recordings. Playing back a recording with something egregious, which we thought might help, doesn't seem to make it click for him...most people don't like hearing the sound of their own recorded voice whether good or bad singing let along hearing what is actually bad. I don't think there's any ego or malice involved. I genuinely think he believes it sounds good which doesn't make sense because, not that he has perfect pitch or anything, he can clearly hear instrument pitch and tone just fine.

I know this is TB and the obvious answer is "Fire him and the drummer", "Just tell him his singing is crap and take his mic away", or "I wouldn't stay in a band that let that continue"...as much as I'd love to have the band decision (that he would happily go along with) be to just not allow him a mic, that kind of thing just isn't realistic. There are friendships involved, some going back to childhood, and the fact is that there are also songs where he does have his parts down and they add something...but that creates the next thing which comes from him having a mic and not having his itch scratched by what he does well enough, which is drawing the line himself...he's become a habitual line stepper.

As I've thought through this, I'm guessing that the band member who wants badly to sing but can't AND can't hear that they can't is probably a rarity versus other combinations...but I'm still curious if others actually do deal with the same thing...and anything that might have worked. Brutal and blunt solutions obviously can and do work in theory and reality but aren't on the table for us. Success in channeling that enthusiasm or to keep someone from improvising extra vocals without any butt-hurt? A pipe-dream? It seems possible that this just one of those situations where the only actual solutions come at the cost of some damage?

Creating a dedicated member role in the band for a sound engineer has been discussed and could incidentally help some for this in simply having control in burying certain vocals, but it wouldn't really be viable for this band overall and there a multiple standing annual gigs (where this matters the most) where I just don't see how we'd be able to use our engineer if we had one.

We had a good friend who hung around one of our bands, and we wanted to include him, but he truly had no talent for anything musical. Backup vocals, percussion... everything was a bust. Drummer showed up one day with a "custom" shaker just for him (it was empty). We never played out with that band, but it was really the only solution.

I guess what I'm saying is, give him a mic, but don't plug a cable into it

 

[drpepper]

We had a good friend who hung around one of our bands, and we wanted to include him, but he truly had no talent for anything musical. Backup vocals, percussion... everything was a bust. Drummer showed up one day with a "custom" shaker just for him (it was empty). We never played out with that band, but it was really the only solution.

I guess what I'm saying is, give him a mic, but don't plug a cable into it

Funny story

 

[Plectrum72]

Good thought, but he uses IEMs. I think there's a deeper problem...the way he hears what he hears.

You could always have his mic go to his in-ears, but not to the mains or others' monitors...

Keep working vocals with him and as he gets more reliable, put more of him in the mix. If he doesn't get more reliable, then back to my first suggestion.

 

[drpepper]

Make sure he can hear himself.
Record practices. Listen to them with everyone`s equipment off (eliminate "wanking"). Listen and say "Let`s focus on what we`re doing vocally".
And then finally............honesty.
It may sting a little but you're shooting for an overall product and if the vocals suck, it won`t matter how good the band is.
We are supposedly adults so if we treat other as such, we should all be able to take in some constructive criticism.
If after listening he can`t tell something is a little off, point it out. Put on your big boy pants and make a decision.

Maybe give the guy a solo song to perform so he can hear himself.

Good post...hilarious video

Yeah...I guess I have to include big boy pants in my assessment

 

[klyph]

An example that I did specifically for him

Wow man, wish someone had done that for me! Great job. You might be contributing to a Dunning Krueger effect situation with your hard work, however. There’s always a bit of “stick” with a good choral conductor, even (especially) with talented singers. Your boy ain’t gettin’ that. A big head can get too loud…

 

[drpepper]

You could always have his mic go to his in-ears, but not to the mains or others' monitors...

Keep working vocals with him and as he gets more reliable, put more of him in the mix. If he doesn't get more reliable, then back to my first suggestion.

Thanks

Yep, ideas about just bringing him way down have the issue of eliminating the things he does well enough and are beneficial

We've talked about trying to start giving as basic as possible notes to sound engineers...just seems like the only way that would be successful is if we had a dedicated sound engineer...but probably worth a try

 

[logdrum]

Hire some Filipinos

I went to some random restaurant in Manila and they were doing line Karaoke, -- meaning you are in a line, do a couple lines (not coke - I mean sing), pass the mic to the next in line -- like a relay/ Everyone can freaking sing -- even the mom taking care of an infant and a guy who looked like he just got off from work. In tune, in pitch , vibrato as needed and projecting like a trained singer

here's an example and dad is doing R&B runs with a baby in his arms.

 

[poochiecheeks]

Kind of brutal...

Interesting dynamics there...you understood this as their way of telling you there was a problem and responded to that cue by not singing anymore? So did/do you believe there was a problem with your singing?

im sure its not great. but i get paid the same if i sing or not. im literally only in this band to pay off my car, really dont care much about it otherwise