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Backing Vocal Challenges in the Weekend Player Space

This suggests the problem is as much about the mix as about the singing.

PBS frequently shows oldies concerts. Frequently most of the hired guns are singing along with the lead, but most of them don't even have a mic in front of them. Just because you sing along does not mean you have to be heard.

You might explore what the problem singer thinks about this. Maybe it's okay for him to sing and not be heard. Maybe he wants a mic, but it doesn't need to be plugged in. Maybe he wants a mic and a monitor, but he doesn't care if anyone else hears him.

Yes. As I mentioned in there somewhere, this is not something that's constantly raging...it comes to the fore every now and again. We work with various sound engineers...some don't need to be told anything, they see and hear what's in front of them 1 lead singer 1 primary backing 2 backing fill and they mix accordingly (i.e., more often than not he's kind of buried anyway, not so completely that the good still adds and the bad is mostly lost), others not so much. And with foh disasters like we just had, it has the potential to stick out like a sore thumb.
 
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Hire some Filipinos

I went to some random restaurant in Manila and they were doing line Karaoke, -- meaning you are in a line, do a couple lines (not coke - I mean sing), pass the mic to the next in line -- like a relay/ Everyone can freaking sing -- even the mom taking care of an infant and a guy who looked like he just got off from work. In tune, in pitch , vibrato as needed and projecting like a trained singer

here's an example and dad is doing R&B runs with a baby in his arms.



I like racial humor as much as the next guy...more usually because the next guy often doesn't like it...but I can't touch this
 
" His voice is naturally baritone and he says he can't sing falsetto at all "Nothing comes out!" which is limiting to say the least for rock and pop backing vocals...all those great baritone parts."

When I read the above, I already had an idea of what was happening, and then when I listened to your GarageBand practice guide (great work by the way), I was confirmed.

If the guy is a natural baritone, your "low harmony" in the GB YouTube, is way too high. You have middle C and D , It would be natural for him to sing if it was a full octave lower. Baritone voices crack at middle C.

That sound creates a big space at the bottom between the 3 voices, so then...

Take "high harmony" and bring it down one full octave (G3 and F3) to give to the baritone, then have the "low harmony" be the new "high harmony", for that tenor singer (D4 and C4). The total will have an open voiced chord, a Drop 2 voicing of your current arrangement.

This problem seems to be to be a part writing / arrangement problem at core.

Here is a big issue.

On albums, often the same person, lead singer, recorded the harmonies to themselves, and so with the same voice have tight harmonies with close position chords in all the same vocal range. But with different singers, baritone, tenor, alto.. you need bigger spacing between the parts.

Your vocal parts aren't good for your group! They are too tight and close together, which only works if all the singers are naturally the same vocal type (ie tenor), which according to your OP is not the case.


Think I it this way.
If an alto saxophonist recorded a song, and did the lead and two close position lower harmonies all in the high alto range, and then he plays live with a tenor and baritone saxophonist, it would be silly to expect the baritone to sound good playing those alto harmonies at the pitch recorded. It has to be re-arranged to fit the ensemble.


I suggest making Drop 2 voicing of your above arrangement and finding out how that goes. Then continue with drop 2 as I suspect it will work better.

instead of
low to high : D G Bb to C F A; you change it to. G D Bb to F C A. Close position triads in 2nd inversion become Drop 2 voiced triads in root position.


His notes should mainly be in the range of A2 to A3 (110Hz to 220Hz).

That will help a lot. IMO, your arrangements are setting him up to fail.

BTW, it doesn't matter what the original recording harmony voicings are, arrange the song so your group sounds as amazing as possible.

I am truly sorry for sending you to that depth of analysis...I have to admit that I used the term "natural baritone" without knowing the definitions of different vocal ranges. What I meant is his relaxed voice is "lower" than much of what's called for. And his natural (by which I mean relaxed/comfortable) voice is what he uses to gauge what he can and can't sing. Funny thing we've noticed is that when he pushes a little it goes higher than he seems to think and that's when he sounds best which we pointed out.

I appreciate the thoughtfulness and apologize again. He didn't have any trouble with the low harmony on that track, so I guess that would be my casual use of the term rather than him being a baritone. It's getting up there for his usual, but not out of his range.
 
So... dude can't sing. Solution: he shouldn't sing. This is an interpersonal issue not a musical one. Either address the issue or accept the situation and stop worrying. It will rob you of enjoyment!

I can't sing harmonies with any reliability. Annoys me a lot, but I've never been into singing anyway, and I don't memorize lyrics, so... No mic for me.

Fortunately I play bass, and that coolness makes up for it.
 
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I think that in terms of backing vocals in the space that includes weekend player bands, two ways (Captain Obvious here) band members can differ is in level of desire to sing (some don't want to sing, some are willing, and some really want to) and ability (some flat out can't sing, some can but may take more effort to learn and memorize harmony parts, and others can both sing and pick up harmonies naturally). You have what you have and you work with it. What I've thought more about is how different combinations of desire and ability determine where successes and difficulties occur and determine how much effort goes into achieving or dealing with them. I see there being combinations that are negative, neutral and positive. Someone who is capable but reluctant for example, takes effort in coaxing possibly...positive result/higher effort. Someone less capable but who really wants to sing should be able to improve with practice...positive result/effort largely on them. Someone who can't sing, recognizes that and doesn't try is at least net neutral, positive if they're not needed because it's settled out of the gate/no effort.

What I'm curious about is experiences with the situation where a band member wants to sing...badly, but just never reaches the level where their singing is consistently a benefit? They put in effort, the band puts in effort, but it just doesn't work.

We have someone who regardless of effort, practice, drilling harmonies at rehearsal just never gets to the point of any real consistency, overall. He still frequently sings off key, has trouble finding his note at gigs even after getting them in rehearsing, and his voice simply doesn't blend particularly well (there is a quality that seems inherent in it that sounds like someone casually singing along with music in the shower or their car and the music is suddenly taken away or like a random audience member got a hold of one of a mic and is in the mix). His voice is naturally baritone and he says he can't sing falsetto at all "Nothing comes out!" which is limiting to say the least for rock and pop backing vocals...all those great baritone parts.

He'll often decide on the fly to double another line, almost always the lead (often an octave down) because melody lines are usually the most familiar. When unison isn't really unison it just creates crap. We've worked up things based on his being okay with certain parts...like "Sing here but not here," but during gigs he'll sometimes add vocals anyway because he honestly seems to think it sounds good...

Which is a big challenge here because he doesn't seem to be able to hear the problems in real-time or recordings. Playing back a recording with something egregious, which we thought might help, doesn't seem to make it click for him...most people don't like hearing the sound of their own recorded voice whether good or bad singing let along hearing what is actually bad. I don't think there's any ego or malice involved. I genuinely think he believes it sounds good which doesn't make sense because, not that he has perfect pitch or anything, he can clearly hear instrument pitch and tone just fine.

I know this is TB and the obvious answer is "Fire him and the drummer", "Just tell him his singing is crap and take his mic away", or "I wouldn't stay in a band that let that continue"...as much as I'd love to have the band decision (that he would happily go along with) be to just not allow him a mic, that kind of thing just isn't realistic. There are friendships involved, some going back to childhood, and the fact is that there are also songs where he does have his parts down and they add something...but that creates the next thing which comes from him having a mic and not having his itch scratched by what he does well enough, which is drawing the line himself...he's become a habitual line stepper.

As I've thought through this, I'm guessing that the band member who wants badly to sing but can't AND can't hear that they can't is probably a rarity versus other combinations...but I'm still curious if others actually do deal with the same thing...and anything that might have worked. Brutal and blunt solutions obviously can and do work in theory and reality but aren't on the table for us. Success in channeling that enthusiasm or to keep someone from improvising extra vocals without any butt-hurt? A pipe-dream? It seems possible that this just one of those situations where the only actual solutions come at the cost of some damage?

Creating a dedicated member role in the band for a sound engineer has been discussed and could incidentally help some for this in simply having control in burying certain vocals, but it wouldn't really be viable for this band overall and there a multiple standing annual gigs (where this matters the most) where I just don't see how we'd be able to use our engineer if we had one.
I mostly play in instrumental bands because I'm of the mindset that the singers should be every bit as good as the players, and that's been rare in my experience. When I'm Ina bar and I hear a band with scrappy vocals, I generally don't stick around. Bad dadband vox are the worst.
 
in any band, money is an issue - to be taken seriously

QED, offer to buy a cuppla vocal lessons

insist, if you have to

if he accepts and it works, great

if he accepts and it doesn't, offer again

he should figure it out for, say $US100 (at $50 a lesson)

if he doesn't accept, well, how easily can you replace the drummer?

:smug:
 
Maybe try to figure out, on your own, the best course of action.
I tried to just ignore this but being me makes it too difficult (wasting minutes of energy and thought on seconds of thoughtlessness)...but that could be the supremely unhelpful, gratuitous response to most of the posts in this or any discussion forum..."How do you handle web presence and content?" Maybe figure it out yourself. "How do you deal with difficult venues?" Maybe figure it out yourself. "How do you get band members to learn songs?" Maybe figure it out yourself, etc., etc., etc.

Discussion is clearly a reason discussion forums exist...it's right there in the name. They can be a resource, a tool, and while some people (I believe the minority) do post looking for permission or to be told what to do...and many responses treat the op as if that were the case either way (which both of those things just go with the territory), I wasn't asking anyone to tell me what to do or make decisions for me...or even to evaluate my situation. The band will ultimately decide (or not) and do what it wants to do (or not) regardless. What I did say is that I was interested in hearing if and how others have handled a particular dynamic that I was also wondering about the commonness of. Again, not because I at all want or need anyone to tell me what to do, but because sometimes different perspectives help clarify things even if they don't change the possible solutions. And sometimes a discussions raised on various topics can just end up working to help other forum members.

In this case, I have found value in some points made and in the thinking that writing and responding forced me to do, which led me to reframe my thinking that the root issue we're facing is perception not capability. Obviously both were part of my understanding already, but the reframe (an "ah ha") makes me feel that anything I might decide to do about it has a better chance of being constructive and successful with the core issue in better sight.
 
Hire some Filipinos

I went to some random restaurant in Manila and they were doing line Karaoke, -- meaning you are in a line, do a couple lines (not coke - I mean sing), pass the mic to the next in line -- like a relay/ Everyone can freaking sing -- even the mom taking care of an infant and a guy who looked like he just got off from work. In tune, in pitch , vibrato as needed and projecting like a trained singer

here's an example and dad is doing R&B runs with a baby in his arms.


(Some people are going to take your opening sentence as insentitive, but...)

The folks in that video can indeed sing! Looks like they are having a lot of fun, too. I'd like to hang out on that patio and join them, as long as I don't have to audition. ;)
 
Can he sing if he isn't playing? Singing without concentrating on playing is easier for me.

Monitors... Useful to me if it's only me coming through them. Lead vocals? Fine. Backing? Doable, IF I'm the only backing vocal. I need to hear ONLY myself. If others are singing, my voice "hunts" for the proper key. Such as: I don't know which vocal is mine so it wanders to let me single myself out.

I've been using a personal monitor which has helped immensely. Mic > Headphone Amp > PA. I hear everything but can crank ONLY myself so as not to be competing. Also, I don't strain/push myself to hear myself, thus saving my voice. My voice can ramp up to volume. Soothing!

I'm in my mid 60's and have had similar situations. Good luck!

Media.jpeg


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J4VHTSW
 
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Can he sing if he isn't playing? Singing without concentrating on playing is easier for me.

Monitors... Useful to me if it's only me coming through them. Lead vocals? Fine. Backing? Doable, IF I'm the only backing vocal. I need to hear ONLY myself. If others are singing, my voice "hunts" for the proper key. Such as: I don't know which vocal is mine so it wanders to let me single myself out.

I've been using a personal monitor which has helped immensely. Mic > Headphone Amp > PA. I hear everything but can crank ONLY myself so as not to be competing. Also, I don't strain/push myself to hear myself, thus saving my voice. My voice can ramp up to volume. Soothing!

I'm in my mid 60's and have had similar situations. Good luck!
Thanks for the input. Playing while singing or monitoring aren't at issue. He doesn't pick up parts he can't handle while playing, and he's on IEMs with control over his own mix, and there's no logical reason to think that his personal mix preferences play a role.

It's really down to the root issue needing a constructive solution being the completely perplexing apparent inability to hear issues with and caused by his singing combined with a very strong desire to sing. And I say apparent inability because it applies to recordings that we can all listen to. So he's either somehow actually not hearing the same thing as everyone else (i.e., he really has a tin ear that applies only to his own voice...which I can't wrap my head around) or there's some possibility that he has difficulty acknowledging it to the group as a self defense mechanism. And you can't fix what you won't acknowledge.

Anyway, the thing that brought this to the forefront was an objectively bad foh mix a few weeks back (he was loudest in the mix), and the recording that gives us the opportunity to go over some crystal clear and undeniable examples. That's where we're hoping for some luck on moving the ball.
 
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there's no logical reason to think that his personal mix preferences play a role.
IME, many musicians seem to struggle to dial in their own mix. The biggest problem is many people can't seem to grasp the idea of balancing a mix. To balance a mix, you simply need to turn up what you can't hear well enough and turn down what you hear too well. Most people only turn things up.

This cause three problems.
1. They wind up "chasing there tail," I.E. having a volume war with themself. By this I mean they turn up something they want to hear better, which causes a problem somewhere else in the mix. So the turn up the other thing, which cause another problem...etc
2. They quickly run out of system headroom and push their mix into distortion
3. Important elements that are mixed lower in the fix have a tendency to get totally lost.

Might be interesting to solo up his mix.

You could also try working on vocals with him acoustically at a low volume level. If I can't do it acoustically, then the best mix in the world is not going to help him.
 
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Can he sing if he isn't playing? Singing without concentrating on playing is easier for me.

Monitors... Useful to me if it's only me coming through them. Lead vocals? Fine. Backing? Doable, IF I'm the only backing vocal. I need to hear ONLY myself. If others are singing, my voice "hunts" for the proper key. Such as: I don't know which vocal is mine so it wanders to let me single myself out.

I've been using a personal monitor which has helped immensely. Mic > Headphone Amp > PA. I hear everything but can crank ONLY myself so as not to be competing. Also, I don't strain/push myself to hear myself, thus saving my voice. My voice can ramp up to volume. Soothing!

I'm in my mid 60's and have had similar situations. Good luck!

View attachment 7540191

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J4VHTSW
I should add, I'm old school. ONLY vocals through the PA. Carry on.✌️🤞
 
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You could also try working on vocals with him acoustically at a low volume level. If I can't do it acoustically, then the best mix in the world is not going to help him.

We do go over vocal parts with just guitar or a cappella when we're adding songs, refreshing or when an issue is noticed. But this is something we've been looking at...trying to figure things out and on reflection this might be where the band is giving him the short end of the stick. Because he doesn't have any critical parts (pretty much fill harmonies), he hasn't been included in vocal sectionals...the reasoning being that he would just be standing around most of the time and what's asked of him are the kinds of things that devoting some time at rehearsal *should* be enough...it is for the rest of us with those kinds of things. Learn/practice, rehearsal work-up, practice, done...

While it doesn't address the part about not seeming to be able to hear the issues, clearly that reasoning doesn't match the reality and isn't enough for him. Also, rehearsals aren't frequent enough to make things stick (for him)...and the way that goes "Wrong, do it again, wrong, do it again...we're not trying to bust your balls...wrong, do it again" until we get a few good run-throughs then move on arguably isn't fair to him. So a change to the way things are done is called for.