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Bag End vs SWR ? (and Mesa )

#21
mb94952 said:
Hey there. I have done a Google search as to not make another thread of many, but there was only one other one here and only had maybe a few responses.

As an Alembic / Cirrus owner / player too, I want to get the most out of my rig. Also, I am getting older and want to downsize gear and end up ultimately with a few rigs to choose from. I am currently playing through my SWR Baby Blue II head and SWR Marcus Miller GoLight 210 and 410 cabs. At the studio I have my SWR Bass 350 burgundy head through a Peavey 210. I also am going to take my Mesa M6 Carbine to replace the Bass 350 this week at the studio.

Would I be making a lateral move to Bag End from SWR / Mesa or is there a magical component I'm missing ? I know the two companies were a good apples to apples comparison.
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I have used Bag End cabinets for about 30 years. Back then they were a compact light weight cabinet. I like them because the 15" cabinets are a transparent cabinet I cant stand cabinets that suck all the Mid's and enhance the low end.I want a cabinet that sounds like the instrument I put into it. I notice when i'm playing with one cabinet and standing at close range I think my volume is good yet when someone sits in and I wander off I am shocked how much louder it is at 30 or 40 feet. I do know that different Bag End cabinets sound different I also had a 1-12 that was transparent but a friend has a 4-10 and the low end is a little to deep for me. Are you going to dissconect the power amp or run a line out to it?
 
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#22
When you say Bad End 4x10 or 2x10, I presume your talking about the Q10BX-? and the D10BX-? cabs. The coaxial 10" speakers you'll find in each of those cabs is a completely different animal than the piezo tweeter you'll find in most other cab designs. It makes the cabinet extremely hi-fi and accurate with its extended range. It is not defeatable nor is it adjustable by any controls on the cabinet, because that aren't any. I have an older Q10BX-R and I love the sound. Especially when paired with an ELF controller and a pair of 18" E series cabs, but that a different thread. By itself, the Q10BX-R is a full range great sounding cab, but its accuracy is not for everyone and very revealing of a players technique.

I don't much experience with SWR and while I own some Mesa Cabs that I also love, I won't comment without knowing specifics about the cabinet you're looking at. Unless a company only has one or two products with very common designs, I don't believe you can distill decades of variations and differing product series into one or two sentences subjectively summing them up.
 
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#23
I am a former Alembic five-string player.

When it comes to amps for those type axes, there's really two ways to go:

1) The axe itself is enough, and any good conventional amp (a Subway stack, an SVT, a Genzler rig, etc.) is fine. Of course, a lot of modern amps/cabs sound a lot more 'hi-fi' than before, but still a conventional bass amp rig is for you. In fact, some guys find a balance in an exceptionally clean bass and a fairly grimy amp.

2) On the other hand, you're ate up with the 'Hi-fi top to bottom', where typically it's a rack/power/preamp rig with more neutral, PA-like bins (for this discussion, BagEnd, but there are obviously others), and you're essentially aiming for a bassy-yet-almost-studio-monitor transparency. Of course these days, with powered bins and footpedal preamps, this is doesn't have to be the furniture-moving project it once was.

I've done both. IF I were to go down that road again, I'd aim for the cleanest bass amp rig that fit the bill, where you have dedicated bass guitar controls and cabinets that approach that rack tone and power. I loved my rack rig, but ultimately it lacked a little warmth that I always missed, and of course a different preamp could have solved that.

But the power and transparency gains that rigs like the Subways and Genzlers and several others have made have to me eliminated the gap that existed twenty years ago when you compared the two styles of amplification.
 
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#24
Mike Marshall said:
I have used Bag End cabinets for about 30 years. Back then they were a compact light weight cabinet. I like them because the 15" cabinets are a transparent cabinet I cant stand cabinets that suck all the Mid's and enhance the low end.I want a cabinet that sounds like the instrument I put into it. I notice when i'm playing with one cabinet and standing at close range I think my volume is good yet when someone sits in and I wander off I am shocked how much louder it is at 30 or 40 feet. I do know that different Bag End cabinets sound different I also had a 1-12 that was transparent but a friend has a 4-10 and the low end is a little to deep for me. Are you going to dissconect the power amp or run a line out to it?
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I wasn't sure, but I'd give the power amp a try. I'm not a big fan of Class D amps, so remains to be seen. At this point I'm probably going to stick with my current rigs after reading all these excellent responses.

trevcda said:
When you say Bad End 4x10 or 2x10, I presume your talking about the Q10BX-? and the D10BX-? cabs. The coaxial 10" speakers you'll find in each of those cabs is a completely different animal than the piezo tweeter you'll find in most other cab designs. It makes the cabinet extremely hi-fi and accurate with its extended range. It is not defeatable nor is it adjustable by any controls on the cabinet, because that aren't any. I have an older Q10BX-R and I love the sound. Especially when paired with an ELF controller and a pair of 18" E series cabs, but that a different thread. By itself, the Q10BX-R is a full range great sounding cab, but its accuracy is not for everyone and very revealing of a players technique.

I don't much experience with SWR and while I own some Mesa Cabs that I also love, I won't comment without knowing specifics about the cabinet you're looking at. Unless a company only has one or two products with very common designs, I don't believe you can distill decades of variations and differing product series into one or two sentences subjectively summing them up.
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I am not familiar with Bag End, other than the ones I tried at the Mothership, so I had no idea that there was a difference between the Q and D series, let alone a big difference like you said. I'm not looking for extreme hi-fi since I usually keep my tweeter off.

As I said, I'm in the "curious" stage and far from making any commitments on changing my gear, but the gear purge and downsizing is an inevitable reality.
 
#25
40Hz said:
I rocked an Alembic for several years and I’ve owned Bag End and currently own an SWR cab. I was (and am) very happy about my experiences with both. I’ve also got a lot of experience with various Mesa amps and cabs. And I really liked those too.

If I were shopping for a new cab right now I’d definitely consider Mesa as my first choice out of the three you’re looking at. Because while all three will deliver a great bass sound, Mesa has the advantages of: (a) still being in production unlike SWR; and (b) being known and more popular than Bag End - which means a higher resale value if you ever decide you want to get something else someday. Mesa’s service is also the best out there IMO.

So unless you want to take a chance on an orphan amp/cab line (with the original speakers since IMO it was the now long discontinued PAS drivers that set the Goliath series cabs apart) I’d probably avoid SWR unless you really want one and can get a good deal in it.

Still, as others suggested, if you still like what you currently have - and don’t have a clear idea of what you may want to migrate to - you’re probably better off holding off on buying something else for the time being. “Bird in the hand” as the saying goes n’est-ce pas? ;):)
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AND Mesa is 10 minutes from me across the freeway. :)
SO you USED to rock and Alembic, so what do you play now ? I LOVE my SWR Baby Blue II, and my Mesa M6 Carbine most followed by the Walkabout.

Here's my best sounding rig - Mesa M6 Carbine through an SWR 610. The "problem" is that is a hard rig for me to lift into the car. That's the main obstacle.

The smallest and most efficient rig I had was my GK NEO 212 cab with a head on top of any kind. Not sure why I got rid of that 33 lb. cab. That's why I was looking at the Bag End 210 powered cab that weighs 55 lbs.
 
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#26
mb94952 said:
SO you USED to rock and Alembic, so what do you play now ? I LOVE my SWR Baby Blue II, and my Mesa M6 Carbine most followed by the Walkabout.
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These days, when it comes to bass, I mostly play a Lightwave Willcox Saber VL 4 fretless (alternating with a '74 Gibson Ripper or Euro Spector fiver) into either an Alembic F1X/Crown stack or an SWR SM-400. I use a Goliath II Junior 2x10 for a cab. But a PB and an JB I modded for active also get their share of play time.

That Mesa head you have is a champ. I keep thinking I want to get a Mesa head and cab. But now that I'm not gigging except for an occasional friend's lawn party or the rare parlor concert with my musical cronies, it's hard to justify the expense or need for more gear than my guitarist SO and I have already accumulated over the years. Truth is we have enough that we could probably fully equip two bands, except for the drums. We have some percussion instruments. But (so far) we've resisted the temptation to get an actual drum kit. However, if we ever do it'll be a Ludwig trap set and a either a Rogers of Slingerland snare and Zildjian Constantinople cymbals. Because it's only money - and YOLO - right? :laugh:
 
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#27
40Hz said:
These days, when it comes to bass, I mostly play a Lightwave Willcox Saber VL 4 fretless (alternating with a '74 Gibson Ripper or Euro Spector fiver) into either an Alembic F1X/Crown stack or an SWR SM-400. I use a Goliath II Junior 2x10 for a cab. But a PB and an JB I modded for active also get their share of play time.

That Mesa head you have is a champ. I keep thinking I want to get a Mesa head and cab. But now that I'm not gigging except for an occasional friend's lawn party or the rare parlor concert with my musical cronies, it's hard to justify the expense or need for more gear than my guitarist SO and I have already accumulated over the years. Truth is we have enough that we could probably fully equip two bands, except for the drums. We have some percussion instruments. But (so far) we've resisted the temptation to get an actual drum kit. However, if we ever do it'll be a Ludwig trap set and a either a Rogers of Slingerland snare and Zildjian Constantinople cymbals. Because it's only money - and YOLO - right? :laugh:
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Yes, you do only live once. I do LOVE my Mesa M6 Carbine. I have tried a thousand (won't say a million :) ) heads and nothing sounds better than the Mesa M6 Carbine. I also love the SM-400, so I know we're on the same page.
 
#30
40Hz said:
These days, when it comes to bass, I mostly play a Lightwave Willcox Saber VL 4 fretless (alternating with a '74 Gibson Ripper or Euro Spector fiver) into either an Alembic F1X/Crown stack or an SWR SM-400. I use a Goliath II Junior 2x10 for a cab. But a PB and an JB I modded for active also get their share of play time.

That Mesa head you have is a champ. I keep thinking I want to get a Mesa head and cab. But now that I'm not gigging except for an occasional friend's lawn party or the rare parlor concert with my musical cronies, it's hard to justify the expense or need for more gear than my guitarist SO and I have already accumulated over the years. Truth is we have enough that we could probably fully equip two bands, except for the drums. We have some percussion instruments. But (so far) we've resisted the temptation to get an actual drum kit. However, if we ever do it'll be a Ludwig trap set and a either a Rogers of Slingerland snare and Zildjian Constantinople cymbals. Because it's only money - and YOLO - right? :laugh:
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So, are you rocking the Mark Garza modded Lightwave ? I have owned a bunch of Garz basses and he is the custom shop for Lightwave.
 
#32
mb94952 said:
So, are you rocking the Mark Garza modded Lightwave ? I have owned a bunch of Garz basses and he is the custom shop for Lightwave.
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AFAIK it’s just a standard Willcox model. Bought it off the TB classifieds. One of the older ones with just the optical and piezo pickups.

Who is Garz? New name for me. custom shop you say? :)
 
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#33
40Hz said:
AFAIK it’s just a standard Willcox model. Bought it off the TB classifieds. One of the older ones with just the optical and piezo pickups.

Who is Garz? New name for me. custom shop you say? :)
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Yes, Mark Garza does the custom shop work for Lightwave. He is a GREAT guy and very knowledgable as he is friendly. He is in the California high desert.
Garz Guitars
Services
 
#34
Yesterday I replaced my burgundy face SWR Bass 350 for my Mesa M6 Carbine. Like I said, I am powering my Peavey TVX210 cab.

I forgot just how creamy and perfect the M6 sounds. The Peavey TVX series has always been a workhorse and the two together really compliment each other. I have the tone I desire and more than enough volume for any situation. I had my amp volume on 3 and my Alembic nearly turned down all the way and it was still almost too loud for a 5 piece rock band, so I think I'm cool for now. I still need to downsize, though.

I still am open to getting rid of / downsizing all my extra cabs in storage for one good Bag End 410, but I don't know enough. As trevcda was saying, the Q and D 410's are different animals. I quickly glanced at the BAG END CLUB thread and read some of you jumped ship to the new Subway cabs from Mesa. So, I think I need to slow down a little and regain my perspective, because a lateral move from SWR Golight to Mesa or Bag End does me no good unless it's an obvious improvement.
 
#35
In Bag End's nomenclature, S is single speaker, D is double speakers, Q is quad speakers. All of the 410s would be Q.

The cabs with an X in the model include a coaxial high frequency driver, the others don't. IP includes their infra processor. P is powered.

B is oiled birch finish, C is carpet, D is deep red carpet, N is Nebula (their hard coated finish). Afaik, the models have all evolved slightly over the years but still play nicely with each other.

It looks like N is also for neo speakers.
 
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#36
Wild Rice Chris said:
In Bag End's nomenclature, S is single speaker, D is double speakers, Q is quad speakers. All of the 410s would be Q.

The cabs with an X in the model include a coaxial high frequency driver, the others don't. IP includes their infra processor. P is powered.

B is oiled birch finish, C is carpet, D is deep red carpet, N is Nebula (their hard coated finish). Afaik, the models have all evolved slightly over the years but still play nicely with each other.

It looks like N is also for neo speakers.
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Thank you so much !!! That's easy once you see it.

So, the X means no HF driver ? Also, from what you guys said the HF horn is always on and can't be defeated ? I'll have to look what infra processor means.
 
#39
Lo-E said:
I would entertain the idea of using a rig made up of multiple DNA 112 or 210 cabinets, which would give you a sound that's directly descended from a sound you already know you like.
Also worth considering are LDS 112 or 210 cabs as Don Oatman has used the sound of Eden cabs as an influence on his designs if I'm not mistaken and my one (ceramic) LDS 112 supports that theory.
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Seems DNA is extinct? LDS is still going.
Low Down Sound - Custom Speaker Cabinets for Bass Guitar
 

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