Banished to the DI Zone

[JimmyM]

2) Controlling tone in a live situation is... well... a lost cause most of the time. OK, if you're hired as the new bassist in U2, you will get what you want. Most of us here? Not so much.

It is only a lost cause when you have a sound tech who doesn't know what's going on or doesn't care what you like. And don't think that just because you're famous that you'll get what you want. John Entwistle complained for years that producers and sound techs wouldn't give him the sound that he wanted. So did Chris Squire, although having a sympathetic producer in Eddy Offord and some hit albums helped that change for him. And Billy Sheehan still complains.

 

[JimmyM]

Aside from a few digital and MIDI enthusiasts, everything in guitar technology seems stuck in the 50s.
Bass technology went further and deeper.

I don't see how when the technology was created is relevant. Who cares?

 

[byacey]

It is only a lost cause when you have a sound tech who doesn't know what's going on or doesn't care what you like. And don't think that just because you're famous that you'll get what you want. John Entwistle complained for years that producers and sound techs wouldn't give him the sound that he wanted. So did Chris Squire, although having a sympathetic producer in Eddy Offord and some hit albums helped that change for him. And Billy Sheehan still complains.

Perhaps if early on they were given the sound they wanted, they wouldn't be well known names now.

 

[Fun Size Nick]

In response to the OP as to when DI became a go-to for bass, I would guess that DI is something that has worked pretty well in the studio for a long time (eg Jamerson in Detroit), and began to work well live once PA systems developed to the point where instrument amps no longer needed to carry the FOH sound. 'Working well' is of course somewhat subjective. A lot of bassists would say that it began 'working well' for them once the Sansamp BDDI became popular. I'm lucky in that I really, really like the sound of the Aguilar THDI straight to the board with AGS on (ie with amp/cab sim active), so that 'works well' for me.

 

[JimmyM]

Perhaps if early on they were given the sound they wanted, they wouldn't be well known names now.

RIIIIIIIGHT!!!

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Yep. IIRC it's the cobalt formulation in the Jensen transformer which has been pegged as the 'magic' in the Wolf DI. It probably has more to do with the design, windings and materials, but probably won't get you all that close to JJ's tone anyway because you'd also need to nail his bass' setup, the tone of that instrument's pickups and his playing ergonomics entirely.

The original transformers were made by Triad. The “banned” metal was Molybdenum. Cobalt also was a factor, having been used in AlNiCo.
Ed Wolfrum tried to get Jensen to build a replacement but Dean Jensen couldn’t do it. Ed did not want to use foreign manufactured transformers with Molybdenum. In the later versions, about 25 new boxes were from NOS Triad A-J11/12 that they were able to scrounge up. The transformers I have are Triad A-J9.
There are more more details in the second link that I included. That’s Ed Wolfrum’s version of the story.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Yes - definitely. I can't imagine why an amp designer wouldn't use the preamp circuitry that has to be there to drive the power amp to make the DI perform better - even if there's a transformer in the DI, having known impedance driving it is a big help.

Also to be passive the best (only) way to do that properly is with a transformer. To add that gets real expensive real fast. And to include something that might drive the cost of the amp up by $100 plus for something not used by the majority of players, just would make no sense.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Make your sound(s) go into a DI. I have made nice with a lot of sound guys and have very few recollections of being forced to DI from my bass. Almost everyone let me use my effected DI output from my bass pod pro, now that I don’t use that often I get basically no resistance when I offer my out from my Genz Benz 12.2 or Firefly DI. I roll in on time, with good gear, and a smile, and don’t get much resistance, and when I do, I smile, and don’t play there any more if it’s my decision, or eat poopie for another payday if it’s not. It depends on the bread.

Expecting sound guys to mic your bass amp will lead to a lot of gnashing of teeth and very little satisfaction. Figure out a way to make your sound happen into a male XLR jack, and you’ll be much happier. Did you know you can parallel a JDI out of a cabinet? Lots of interesting schemes out there.

 

[JimmyM]

Expecting sound guys to mic your bass amp will lead to a lot of gnashing of teeth and very little satisfaction.

Stop it. That is not true at all. The only gnashing of teeth comes from incompetent techs. I have done hundreds of gigs with a mic and no DI and have had amazing sound. I'd still be doing it too, if it wasn't for the whiny incompetent techs who aren't fit to run sound for an insurance convention.

 

[andykeating]

Bass just tends to sound better through a DI - much more controlled bottom end. Very difficult to capture those low frequencies accurately through any microphone. I'm not an engineer but the guy who produces my band swears by DI - gives him a better quality signal to deal with and then adds in a little bit of the amp and cab for flavour.

I may get lynched for this as well, but when you're playing through big house systems, I'm not convinced a unique bass tone is quite as identifiable as the guitar tone. FOH likely want something as straighforward as possible with as little bleed as possible - hence so many bands going ampless. That aside, I'm not sure why so many bassists have this conception that they can't get "their" sound with DI. Complete nonsense.

FWIW, I always used to be a bit wary of not having any of my amp sound out front, and for most gigs I still have a mic on the cab but that's always backed up by my Countryman DI box and in some instances I go DI only. I'd never ever be overly precious about my setup if I thought it would compromise the sound out front and the show - for me, that's why people come to see the band.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Stop it. That is not true at all. The only gnashing of teeth comes from incompetent techs. I have done hundreds of gigs with a mic and no DI and have had amazing sound. I'd still be doing it too, if it wasn't for the whiny incompetent techs who aren't fit to run sound for an insurance convention.

Fair enough, I haven’t had a bass cab miked as long as I can remember, nor do I recall a better response when I did. I totally agree it’s up to the sound guy... but it’s a lot more time consuming to properly mic a bass cab than a guitar cab. Seeing as I play a lot of weddings and corporate gigs, the typical insurance expo sound guy is my current sound guy, perhaps I’ve adapted

 

[Adam Wright]

always wanted to mic my cab but never have the pingpongs to ask. Now that we travel with our own sound man, I still wuss out. Best tones I've ever heard live are usually a mic/di combo. There's a club in Dallas called Curtain Club(believe it recently changed hands)..there was this sound guy there named James and he could get a GREAT bass sound from nearly any piece of gear guys brought in. It was mainly a club for mediocre rock/metal so this was almost always cutting through a wall of dense guitars that could be anything from a Fender tweed to a Mesa Dual Rec to some ungodly Crate full stack. Guy knew his stuff and I pretty much always saw him use a mic/di.

 

[leonard]

I have it easy because I like the sound of a straight DI to the PA. I have my own DI on my pedalboard after a hpf, tuner and a blended drive pedal. As an added bonus I can set my stage amp tone any way I want.

If the soundman wants to compress the bass signal there's an added chance of feedback with a microphone.

A Sansamp is nice in the studio. I can get warm and full sounds without hassling with amps and phase issues. And blending straight and sansamped sounds is as easy as tweaking a knob.

 

[Relsom]

This whole DI revolution is really working in my favor, and just in the nick of time. As a certified gear whore-der, with stacks of basses, a couple few rigs, etc, I'm running out of room for the big stuff. Couple that with COPD and my increasing inability to tote said big stuff, now I have a nice little collection of various DIs and floor mounted preamp pedals going on that I can fit everything I need in a briefcase.

Speaking of big stuff.... it's funny. It use to be that the big stuff was a 118MH, 2x15, & rack Power/Pre. Then it was 2 x Goliath Jr, SM400. Then it was Ashdown ABM500 and a couple of Mini12s. Now that I primarily run a Bassbone or StageDirect, the Big Stuff has become my little 32lb. Shuttle 6.2-12T combo and maybe a 12T ext.
Frankly..... I love going direct. Just give me what I need back in my IEMs and we're good 2 go.

 

[nilorius]

I think micing a cab witha amp in a gig or recording is quite a stupid procedure, but maybe there are others to think different.

 

[socialleper]

The “banned” metal was Molybdenum.

Unobtainium?

 

[Frenchy-Lefty]

A guitar amp is an important part of an electric guitar sound. It is not transparent by any means. In other hand, a bass amplifier tends to pretty much reproduce an accurate picture of the instrument (admitedly not an Ampeg SVT) . As a result, a good PA with a good eq will not sound significatly different than a bass amp. A good tube DI like a REDDI can even make the DI'd signal sound very close to an SVT. So why bother?

As a recording engineer, I feel differently about recording a bass where a well mic'd amp tends to sit better in the mix.

 

[bassboysam]

the biggest contributer to my sound is an ampeg 810. a DI will not capture that and i don't like the extended lows and highs that a DI provides and the mids never sound right to me with a DI.

 

[socialleper]

This whole DI revolution is really working in my favor, and just in the nick of time. As a certified gear whore-der, with stacks of basses, a couple few rigs, etc, I'm running out of room for the big stuff. Couple that with COPD and my increasing inability to tote said big stuff, now I have a nice little collection of various DIs and floor mounted preamp pedals going on that I can fit everything I need in a briefcase.

Speaking of big stuff.... it's funny. It use to be that the big stuff was a 118MH, 2x15, & rack Power/Pre. Then it was 2 x Goliath Jr, SM400. Then it was Ashdown ABM500 and a couple of Mini12s. Now that I primarily run a Bassbone or StageDirect, the Big Stuff has become my little 32lb. Shuttle 6.2-12T combo and maybe a 12T ext.
Frankly..... I love going direct. Just give me what I need back in my IEMs and we're good 2 go.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not the kind if guy that is locked in a technological time warp. I love my Mesa D800 and Barefaced 212 cab. Light, easy, and loud. But I'd like to have people hear it. It seems like the only time I sound like me is at rehearsal.

 

[AlexBassMP]

I freaked out when I watched the Bon Jovi Rig Rundown in Premier Guitar.

A Radial Firefly Tube DI straight to FOH , an overdrive and a tuner.