Banished to the DI Zone

[Wood and Wire]

Sorry, but nothing I hate worse than putting off decisions like that till the very end. No reason you can't DI and mic at the same time, and no reason you should need anything more than slight touchups in the mixing stage. I say get it down on tape the way you want it as it goes down, you save time and money, and unless the recording turns out to be absolute butchery once it gets mixed (rarely happens), then you're golden.

Fix it in the shrink wrap...

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I am by no means a Jamerson expert. I can name exactly one song that I know for 100% is him (not a Motown guy.) I'm just going on whatever this custom made Franken-DI they are talking about here:
The Real James Jamerson Amp

I am no Jamerson expert either. Just wanted to set the record straight about what this box is and is not.

I ran across the schematic one day and saw the transformer they used in the original Dr. Ed version and it sounded strangely similar to a couple I had somewhere in a junk box. Dug them out, checked the specs against the original, did some more research on the man and his "invention", and set about building. I even have the extra metal shields that were made for the transformers. Barely fit in the box I had for it, and the whole finished project weighs about half a brick. Ya don't want to be droppin' this puppy on your bare piggies.

 

[Downunderwonder]

With a DI, you can go ampless. That eliminates bass bleed. Including the annoying snare drum rattle it causes.

If you are ampless it's all moot.

 

[Jack]

Quick question on active DI's and passivize pickups - it is necessary to have an active DI with passive pickups if the bass is running through a pedal board such as a Zoom B3n?

No, the Zoom acts as a buffer and your bass signal is essentially 'active' (lower impedance, stronger/louder, no interactions with your pickups) after it so a passive DI will suffice.

And a follow up question: can a DI be successfully used after the Zoom B3n in order to replicate a desired tone?

Of course, anything you like.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

If i can show up with a bass and a small pedalboard, I’m all for it.

 

[MDBass]

Why is the character of the room, the mics, etc less important or desired for bass? Do players not want it, does room ambience get out of control, or should guitars be DI'ed and drums tracked through e-kits?

Getting a great sounding electric bass track via a single clean full range DI is totally possible: getting a great sounding electric guitar track, especially one with ANY amount of distortion, is not.

That's really the simplest answer: but essentially everyone ALSO takes a clean DI while tracking guitars in case re-amping or other changes are necessary later.

You generally don't want room ambience in a bass track, whereas having none in your drums can sound quite strange, and you generally aren't using any stereo information either: the treatments for guitars and drums are just entirely different than for bass.

 

[agedhorse]

Quick question on active DI's and passive pickups - it is necessary to have an active DI with passive pickups if the bass is running through a pedal board such as a Zoom B3n?

And a follow up question: can a DI be successfully used after the Zoom B3n in order to replicate a desired tone?

Generally, the first pedal used with a passive bass will provide the same buffering effect as the active part of the active DI.

 

[BurningSkies]

If you are talking about the ACME Motown D.I. WB-3.
This is a clone of the Wolf Box (WB in WB-3) which was originally designed and built by Dr. Ed Wolfrum.
Discussed here:
Video: How to Sound Like Motown's James Jamerson
And also here:
Link Removed
View attachment 3181929
There is nothing sophisticated about it at all, it is just a high impedance to low impedance transformer and a variable audio attenuator.
Total parts count is: 1 Transformer, One Pot, three connectors, two switches, and two resistors.
I know what's in these because I'm just finishing up building one.

It did use a transformer that has some unique qualities and for EPA reasons can no longer be manufactured.
The one I built uses a transformer just one model number away from what was used in the original.
It spec's out almost exactly the same and was built back when you could build them.

If you want to sound like Jamerson, this will not you get you there.
Yes it was a part of the tech involved in the making of the Motown Sound.
The Wolf Box was most likely the first iteration of a D.I. at least that was used widely.
But Mr. Jamerson's sound was all Mr. Jamerson, it did not come about because of some magic box.

Yep. IIRC it's the cobalt formulation in the Jensen transformer which has been pegged as the 'magic' in the Wolf DI. It probably has more to do with the design, windings and materials, but probably won't get you all that close to JJ's tone anyway because you'd also need to nail his bass' setup, the tone of that instrument's pickups and his playing ergonomics entirely.

 

[Wasnex]

One core question I asked in the OP hasn't really been addressed. When did using a DI on bass become so prevalent. We can site instances of early DI use for the bass, but when did it become the default in the studio and\or live.

The conversation about coloring or EQ'ing your tone artificially with amps and cabs have flitted through here, but I think there is a very important point there.
The use of special rooms, multiple mics, and specific placement for drums and guitar isn't compensating for short coming in the instruments. When I listen to engineers talk about recording those instruments, the extras are what give the performance its special character. They talk about "great rooms" with "wonderful mic placements." These are purposeful additives. If you think about something like Whiskey, the alcohol is what everyone is after, but what separates a $5 generic Whiskey from a $50 Whiskey is the special care taken to make it a unique, pleasant drink. Vocals and acoustic instruments are also treated very carefully to get the best "feeling."
Why is the electric bass guitar the only instrument in a classic rock band that isn't afforded all of this special attention. Why is the character of the room, the mics, etc less important or desired for bass? Do players not want it, does room ambience get out of control, or should guitars be DI'ed and drums tracked through e-kits?

IMHO, the primary reason to mic an amp is to capture the nuance the amp imparts on tone. Mic technique and acoustics play a role, but they are secondary. Whether mic'ing or DI is chosen should be an artistic choice based on the situation and goals. Mic selection is also somewhat of an art form.

Prior to turning full-time pro, I did a some gigs with a Fender Twin running JBL E120s as my bass amp. I mic'ed the speakers because that is all we had. I was living in a 3rd-world country at the time. I had no idea I was going to gig while I was there and had left a practically new SVT and 810 back in the states.

I went full-time pro in 1989 and was active for over 20 years. I don't remember ever mic'ing my rig on a live gig. There was one recording session where the studio techs asked me to bring in my amp so they could mic it. I asked them to run a DI instead, but they insisted on the amp. We wound up running both for the session, but I preferred the DI sound. The amp I was running at the time was an SWR Redhead. They spent 30-45 minutes getting the mic positioned to produce the sound they wanted...wasted time IMHO. All the other recording sessions I have ever done were straight to DI.

 

[Mannyinnewyork]

I think it’s case of “much ado about nothing”. If you’re playing well and the engineer behind the board is good, you’re going to sound good - DI or amp. I worked in a studio for several years and we always took a DI signal to work with. Some times we took an amp signal as well.

It’s mostly up to the player.

 

[overit]

Are there others out there who really like their clean DI tone? [raising hand]

 

[agedhorse]

Are there others out there who really like their clean DI tone? [raising hand]

Nobody said the DI tone has to be clean. It depends where the DI is placed in the signal path.

 

[JimmyM]

Are there others out there who really like their clean DI tone? [raising hand]

I do when I use my REDDI or tube amp speaker level DI'd.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Are there others out there who really like their clean DI tone? [raising hand]

For recording, absolutely! You never know what will be needed in post to make the bass fit the song. Better to have a clean, pure, zero effects / EQ, full-range signal. More flexibility and control after the playing is done.

 

[JimmyM]

For recording, absolutely! You never know what will be needed in post to make the bass fit the song. Better to have a clean, pure, zero effects / EQ, full-range signal. More flexibility and control after the playing is done.

I never got that. Just more decisions to put off till the mixing stage. Plus when I've had engineers tell me I should do that, inevitably the effects I want never make it onto the track.

 

[socialleper]

when you have a tort pickguard your on-stage amp no longer bleeds into the other mics..

Wait, is it the tort PG or flats. I can never remember.

 

[honeyiscool]

I have a stereo Radial Pro DI. I use it for keyboards. It is passive and very warm sounding. I really like how it sounds on guitar. I plan on using it with a Helix Stomp when I play gigs with both piano and guitar. I could do the same with a bass, use a modeling pedal with a stand-alone DI that has all the effects I need going into it. I have a Rupert Neve Active DI that I use for recording when fidelity is most important. It’s very easy to get good sound out of these things.

In the past three years, tech has come a long way. It’s no longer even true that a tube guitar amp is best recorded with a mic. If you can afford a Suhr RL (with some good Celestion Plus IRs) or an UA Ox, you can get a great sound much easier with those direct boxes on guitar amps than with a mic.

The thing is, DI isn’t really a punishment. It’s a tool to solve a problem of getting good bass tone and bass is more tricky than guitar. Otherwise, subtleties can easily get lost. Bass guitar and keyboards are the two instruments that get DI most often and they both contain a lot of information that gets lost through speakers and mics. Drums often get like 8 channels because there is no other way. If there was a way to get it though a single cable, we would.

Also, mic is so variable, too. Which cab with which mic and where you mic and all of those things. That’s a whole five extra levels that most engineers don’t wanna deal with when the audience is generally best served being given a clean bass sound.

 

[socialleper]

I've been playing bass since the 70's - been using a DI in a lot of circumstances the whole time. The last decade, in every Rock setting, 100%. I play a small acoustic gig that I do use an amp, but that's a VERY different setting.

The character of the room is MORE important for bass - the acoustical eigenmodes (frequencies that set up standing waves) in the room operate most strongly at low frequencies. Part of why a DI and going ampless is a good idea that is it reduces the number of sources of low frequency energy, which makes that situation more manageable. The sound guy is (hopefully) familiar with how his rig reacts to the room. Adding your amp sound to the mix brings in a variable that isn't going to help you sound good.

Putting guitar maps in iso cabinets also helps the situation - but there, it isn't so much room modes, but control over the mix that it helps. Plus, of course, there is the "occasional" guitarist who won't turn down issue. And (like the bass going ampless) it helps the drums sound cleaner, and eliminates my aforementioned annoying as hell snare buzz.

Sound guys (mostly) know what they're doing - they do things that make your band sound better, and for real logical reasons that make sense in terms of getting a good sound to the audience. If you spend some time learning the why's from them, you'll see that it does make sense. I choose to work with them.

That's actually some very good data. I think I misunderstood what people meant when they said bass frequencies were difficult to manage live. I thought they meant getting a mic with the right sound and SPL.
You are talking about the sound bouncing around the room in unpredictable ways.
Why wouldn't the low notes of a piano, synth or kick have the same problem?
As far as the studio, why wouldn't we want a more airy, 3 dimensional sound for the bass like guitar or drums. Isnt it disappointing to have the bass be so flat in the mix compare to "alive" sounding guitar and drums?

 

[burgerdj]

Sansamp Programmable Bass Driver DI is a wonderful tool. I use it as a preamp into the fx return of my amp and send the signal from the DI to the house, which very closely emulates a mic’d cabinet. I get to hear the same tone on stage as they hear in the mains...and get three different tones for kicks!

 

[Hundred proof]

My fix is to send the board the same signal my clean amp gets. ... that's a little compression and some light overdrive run through a Radial JDI.