Banished to the DI Zone

[socialleper]

Actually the most famous bass records have been DI-ied since there was not enough room for an amp or a least this is what the legend says:
The Real James Jamerson Amp

I read that after someone else mentioned Jamerson. That only holds true to a small extent. Maybe very early recording studios were tiny one or two room affairs, but I'm talking more about the 70s. By that time recording full guitar stacks were common. If there was room for a guitar stack there would be room for a bass stack.

 

[XrisThaBassman]

At least in part, it is physics. Bass signals are pervasive when projected from the stage, making the FOH engineers job difficult, because the bass contaminates some of the other feeds.

You say contaminate, I say pollinate...

 

[socialleper]

Sorry but I had to drop in and say . I am happy with my SVTs, but I can't stand the sound of an 810E. IMHO, try not to overgeneralize, because not everyone shares your taste in rigs. This is not a critique of your tastes...810E are awesome; just not my thing.

It definitely has its place. Somewhere you want crisp, clean articulation would not be among them. I play mostly loud heavy rock and the SVT is well suited for that purpose. I've never personally owned one because of the weight\space challenges they present.

Audio techs want to do a good job, and need to have tools they understand so they can make corrective changes intuitively. If you are likely to work with the same audio tech again in the future, maybe you can encourage them to do some experiments mic'ing bass cabs in a controlled environment, so you can use a mic next time.

My experience is a little different. I can play the same location within a year and it will be a whole new crew running the place. At best I've encountered guys with faux politeness, at worst I've encountered complete apathy were it is clear I'm one of six bands playing that night and am just part of the paycheck.
Strike that. At worst, the promoter or someone in one of the other bands is running the PA, and isn't paying very close attention. I actually had a mic die in the middle of a set and we had to stop playing for 5 minutes while someone went and found the "sound guy." He didn't have a mic cable (what?!) put luckily I had an extra. Super weak.

 

[agedhorse]

Bass bleed is the same regardless of whether the bass is mic'd or DI.

Ya, I'm not understanding that logic either. If you DI me, I'm still going to be running my cab. That doesn't change if I bleed into other mics. Most of the stages I play on are pretty tight, so I can understand the idea of my cab bleeding into others, but given that the monitors in such places are also pretty iffy, and not good at producing bass, my cab is my monitor. That thing is set to broadcast no matter what.

Not if the bass is turned up... the louder the bass is the greater the challenge of bleed into everything else. Front line mics, especially if there is an acoustic guitar (mic'd especially, but even with a pickup if it's loud enough to vibrate the body) or god forbid, an acoustic piano.

 

[socialleper]

Not if the bass is turned up... the louder the bass is the greater the challenge of bleed into everything else. Front line mics, especially if there is an acoustic guitar (mic'd especially, but even with a pickup if it's loud enough to vibrate the body) or god forbid, an acoustic piano.

In a situation like that, a DI is understandable for live. In the studio it makes a little less sense. Wouldn't those sort of instruments be isolated away from everything else? And are most thing tracked separately these days?

 

[agedhorse]

In a situation like that, a DI is understandable for live. In the studio it makes a little less sense. Wouldn't those sort of instruments be isolated away from everything else? And are most thing tracked separately these days?

I'm talking about live, I spent very little time in the studio environment.

 

[CapnSev]

Well.. I... well, kinda like the DI zone...

It’s crosssd my mind many, many times to just use my pedal board and get a nice powered monitor for rehearsals and practice. They’re so cheap comparatively speaking. All my tone comes from my bass and board anyway.

 

[JimmyM]

Actually the most famous bass records have been DI-ied since there was not enough room for an amp or a least this is what the legend says:
The Real James Jamerson Amp

Jamerson wasn't the only bassist in the 60's. Plenty of bassists mic'ed amps back then and still do. And when Jamerson moved to LA, he DI'd and mic'ed a B-15 most of the time. And made some very popular recordings as well.

 

[micguy]

Bass bleed is the same regardless of whether the bass is mic'd or DI.

With a DI, you can go ampless. That eliminates bass bleed. Including the annoying snare drum rattle it causes.

 

[socialleper]

One core question I asked in the OP hasn't really been addressed. When did using a DI on bass become so prevalent. We can site instances of early DI use for the bass, but when did it become the default in the studio and\or live.

The conversation about coloring or EQ'ing your tone artificially with amps and cabs have flitted through here, but I think there is a very important point there.
The use of special rooms, multiple mics, and specific placement for drums and guitar isn't compensating for short coming in the instruments. When I listen to engineers talk about recording those instruments, the extras are what give the performance its special character. They talk about "great rooms" with "wonderful mic placements." These are purposeful additives. If you think about something like Whiskey, the alcohol is what everyone is after, but what separates a $5 generic Whiskey from a $50 Whiskey is the special care taken to make it a unique, pleasant drink. Vocals and acoustic instruments are also treated very carefully to get the best "feeling."
Why is the electric bass guitar the only instrument in a classic rock band that isn't afforded all of this special attention. Why is the character of the room, the mics, etc less important or desired for bass? Do players not want it, does room ambience get out of control, or should guitars be DI'ed and drums tracked through e-kits?

 

[socialleper]

Jamerson wasn't the only bassist in the 60's.

HERESY!

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I just read about the "DI" Jamerson used. That was one sophisticated piece of equipment that did a lot to impart a lot of amp-like tube quality to his tone. I'd say it was a far cry from the basic SS DI boxes most venues use, or going straight into an interface like a lot of studios do.

If you are talking about the ACME Motown D.I. WB-3.
This is a clone of the Wolf Box (WB in WB-3) which was originally designed and built by Dr. Ed Wolfrum.
Discussed here:
Video: How to Sound Like Motown's James Jamerson
And also here:
Link Removed

There is nothing sophisticated about it at all, it is just a high impedance to low impedance transformer and a variable audio attenuator.
Total parts count is: 1 Transformer, One Pot, three connectors, two switches, and two resistors.
I know what's in these because I'm just finishing up building one.

It did use a transformer that has some unique qualities and for EPA reasons can no longer be manufactured.
The one I built uses a transformer just one model number away from what was used in the original.
It spec's out almost exactly the same and was built back when you could build them.

If you want to sound like Jamerson, this will not you get you there.
Yes it was a part of the tech involved in the making of the Motown Sound.
The Wolf Box was most likely the first iteration of a D.I. at least that was used widely.
But Mr. Jamerson's sound was all Mr. Jamerson, it did not come about because of some magic box.

 

[Das Jugghead]

Actually, there are very good reasons for active DI's (not cheap ones in particular).

The input impedance is much higher on an active DI. Which loads passive pickups less and reduces the negative impact that this causes.

Quick question on active DI's and passive pickups - it is necessary to have an active DI with passive pickups if the bass is running through a pedal board such as a Zoom B3n?

And a follow up question: can a DI be successfully used after the Zoom B3n in order to replicate a desired tone?

 

[bucephylus]

Bass bleed is the same regardless of whether the bass is mic'd or DI.

Oh, I see your point.

Well, this goes back to how you are using the amp, right? For one thing, as has been pointed out, with DI, you may not need the amp/speaker cab at all. But, the other part is you no longer require turning the amp up to get either tone or projection, since the amp is mainly a monitor at that point.

Of course, a player may or may not agree with that perspective. I was simply commenting on how DI’s came to be more commonly accepted/used on bass amps vs guitar amps. But, you are correct that bass bleed is unaffected by whether a DI cable is stuck in the amp or not.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Ya, I'm not understanding that logic either. If you DI me, I'm still going to be running my cab. That doesn't change if I bleed into other mics. Most of the stages I play on are pretty tight, so I can understand the idea of my cab bleeding into others, but given that the monitors in such places are also pretty iffy, and not good at producing bass, my cab is my monitor. That thing is set to broadcast no matter what.

So you could mic it.

 

[socialleper]

Totally get your point if you’re taking about micing a live cab in lieu of a DI, but cab IRs were specifically mentioned here.

I brought it up because it was the first time I noticed that something was missing when I did a straight DI from my amp.
I can accept that sims\IRs are a perfect case scenario that may not be easily achieved in the studio. I'm just starting to get into DYI recording and can make no declarations of mastery. But I do know I like what I heard. It worked well for a Dio era Sabbath riff I was screwing with and for a newer sounding metal project I recently joined. I actually like playing through the Amplitube stuff more than through my amp when practicing along with the tunes.
What I can't tell you is if the simulation is 100% accurate and that's what I like, or if it is just the processed whatever the plugin is giving me.
I've never been happy with my recorded tones because it never sounds like what I sound like when I'm playing with the band. Its always the engineer's tone that he pulled out of his backside.

 

[socialleper]

If you are talking about the ACME Motown D.I. WB-3.
This is a clone of the Wolf Box (WB in WB-3) which was originally designed and built by Dr. Ed Wolfrum.
Discussed here:
Video: How to Sound Like Motown's James Jamerson
And also here:
Link Removed
View attachment 3181929
There is nothing sophisticated about it at all, it is just a high impedance to low impedance transformer and a variable audio attenuator.
Total parts count is: 1 Transformer, One Pot, three connectors, two switches, and two resistors.
I know what's in these because I'm just finishing up building one.

It did use a transformer that has some unique qualities and for EPA reasons can no longer be manufactured.
The one I built uses a transformer just one model number away from what was used in the original.
It spec's out almost exactly the same and was built back when you could build them.

If you want to sound like Jamerson, this will not you get you there.
Yes it was a part of the tech involved in the making of the Motown Sound.
The Wolf Box was most likely the first iteration of a D.I. at least that was used widely.
But Mr. Jamerson's sound was all Mr. Jamerson, it did not come about because of some magic box.

I am by no means a Jamerson expert. I can name exactly one song that I know for 100% is him (not a Motown guy.) I'm just going on whatever this custom made Franken-DI they are talking about here:
The Real James Jamerson Amp

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

I'm VERY happy with my DI tube tone! Can be clean ... or dirty. Whatever you want. Happy with the weight and size, too!

 

[bassboysam]

Ya, I'm not understanding that logic either. If you DI me, I'm still going to be running my cab. That doesn't change if I bleed into other mics. Most of the stages I play on are pretty tight, so I can understand the idea of my cab bleeding into others, but given that the monitors in such places are also pretty iffy, and not good at producing bass, my cab is my monitor. That thing is set to broadcast no matter what.

when you have a tort pickguard your on-stage amp no longer bleeds into the other mics..

 

[micguy]

One core question I asked in the OP hasn't really been addressed. When did using a DI on bass become so prevalent.
---
Why is the character of the room, the mics, etc less important or desired for bass? Do players not want it, does room ambience get out of control, or should guitars be DI'ed and drums tracked through e-kits?

I've been playing bass since the 70's - been using a DI in a lot of circumstances the whole time. The last decade, in every Rock setting, 100%. I play a small acoustic gig that I do use an amp, but that's a VERY different setting.

The character of the room is MORE important for bass - the acoustical eigenmodes (frequencies that set up standing waves) in the room operate most strongly at low frequencies. Part of why a DI and going ampless is a good idea that is it reduces the number of sources of low frequency energy, which makes that situation more manageable. The sound guy is (hopefully) familiar with how his rig reacts to the room. Adding your amp sound to the mix brings in a variable that isn't going to help you sound good.

Putting guitar maps in iso cabinets also helps the situation - but there, it isn't so much room modes, but control over the mix that it helps. Plus, of course, there is the "occasional" guitarist who won't turn down issue. And (like the bass going ampless) it helps the drums sound cleaner, and eliminates my aforementioned annoying as hell snare buzz.

Sound guys (mostly) know what they're doing - they do things that make your band sound better, and for real logical reasons that make sense in terms of getting a good sound to the audience. If you spend some time learning the why's from them, you'll see that it does make sense. I choose to work with them.