Being able to play at different volumes in an effort to have a perfect blend of instruments. Just having that knowledge and experience makes for a much better sounding band. Dynamics is another term that can be used.
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Bar Manager Refused to Pay Us! Now what?
- Thread starter TooManyThinking
- Start date
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Again. The band's style (as quoted by the OP - unless *you're* calling him a liar ..!) was unsuitable for the venue. The music itself was not quiet. Wrong band, wrong venue.
You don't book a 'hip hop/reggae/rock/funk fusion' band to play in a venue where nothing can be heard over the drums (no matter how hard the drummer hits) - that would be stupid. Just like you don't book a death metal band and then expect them to play soft rock in a tiny room. That would also be stupid. You don't book a string quartet for a biker festival and ask them to play some Sabbath. That - no, actually that would be kind of cool.
Heh heh, that would be kind of cool.
And it still is a matter of being professional.
There appears to have been no issue with the style of music...only volume.
When asked by the guy who is going to pay you to turn down, you turn down. To his satisfaction.
It's that simple.
Joe.
Reminds me of a joke. Band finishes the set and goes on break. Club owner approaches the drummer: "Don't get me wrong, you are a fine player, but could you please play with some dynamics?"
Drummer replies: "What do you mean? I am already playing as loud as I can."
But seriously, playing at an appropriate volume for the audience and venue is just part of knowing how to play. Simple as that. There is no such thing as a "good drummer who plays too loud."
Drummer replies: "What do you mean? I am already playing as loud as I can."
But seriously, playing at an appropriate volume for the audience and venue is just part of knowing how to play. Simple as that. There is no such thing as a "good drummer who plays too loud."
The OP hasn't been back here since his original post. He realized A) he was in the wrong, and crawled away with his tail between his legs, ashamed to say anything else, or B) he's too young and stubborn to acknowledge the band was in the wrong, and took his issue to some other forum (unnamed, of course) where he's surrounded by more of his own kind, where other kids can talk about smashing bar windows or stealing bar alcohol. 
I'd love for him to show up and participate in the thread HE started with an issue HE had to prove me wrong. Not a chance he will, however.
I'd love for him to show up and participate in the thread HE started with an issue HE had to prove me wrong. Not a chance he will, however.
Exactly. Just as I said earlier... Dynamics are just as important as other aspects of playing, including timing, feel, etc. If he cannot control his dynamics, he's not a good drummer. Period.
Performance agreement?
Contract?
for a $350.00 bar gig?
yeah right. Whatever you say...
Our band always gets a written performance agreement, even if we're only playing for chump change. We have pre-printed standard forms with our obligations and the venues obligations and a lot of blank areas that we fill in and before the bottom gets signed. We have our copy signed by the venue before we even think about loading up our gear to go play. Playing bar gigs for 20+ years has taught me that it's FOOLISH to not do this.
if you're drummer doesn't understand dynamics then how would he ever quiet down? The ability to play at different volumes for different situations can come in handy. Sounds like you really didn't deserve any pay if the dude had to keep asking to drop the volume level and you guys couldn't do that.
I've played with drummers that only play loud.... it'l make you go deaf pretty quick if you practice with them a lot. I left my last band because of a drummer and guitarist who both only know of a single volume -- rock concert loud, all the time in a small practice space. It's a shame because the band was going really well with a full line up but I just couldn't handle the pain in my ears from those two.
I've played with drummers that only play loud.... it'l make you go deaf pretty quick if you practice with them a lot. I left my last band because of a drummer and guitarist who both only know of a single volume -- rock concert loud, all the time in a small practice space. It's a shame because the band was going really well with a full line up but I just couldn't handle the pain in my ears from those two.
The drummer of any band sets the stage volume. There are no volume knobs on a drum set (except electronic drums). If a drummer is too loud, then everyone else turns up so they can hear themselves too. This is what I call "escalation" . Tell him to add a drum dampening ring to each drum head. If they are still too loud , add a second or third ring to each drum. After he starts spending more and more on dampening rings, he might learn to lighten up. Or lighter sticks? If not, then replace him. We once had a drummer with a $17K set of DW's and he hit them so hard you wouldnt believe it. We asked him to lighten up, he wouldnt. We asked him to put dampeners on ea. drum. He said it would ruin the tone of his precious babys. This was all 2 weeks before a very important gig and we had no time to replace him. The day of the gig , he shows up for setup with a new RV , a $4k light trelice for behind the drums and insisted on mic'ing all of his (get this) 17 piece drum set, in a med. venue. He played so loud, I would not have mic'ed any of his drums. We did the gig and fired him the next day.
A few comments from experience:
1) Being asked to turn down by a venue is not a rare event. It happens all the time and it is a requirement of the musician's job that they accommodate this request to the satisfaction of the venue. On several occasions, we've had to actually turn off the PA and microphones, singing bare voiced into the crowd, have the drummer pull out a tambourine and maracas and the guitarist pull out his un-amplified acoustic while I turned my bass down to about 1% volume, all in order to satisfy the venue.
2) We don't like doing this so we (as professionals) make very clear up front that we are a rock band that plays at a certain volume and when we book our gigs we make sure to get a feel for the venue to try to weed out the inevitable clueless booking managers who have no ******* idea what they're getting into because all they know is that the owner of the bar/restaurant has just the previous week decided that having bands play will bring in lots of new customers so, "Start hiring some bands!" The last time we were the first one of those bands hired by a bar restaurant that wanted to do this and we found ourselves playing in the middle of a crowded restaurant, literally a few feet away from tables full of dinner patrons who were there to eat and not listen to a band. That was one of our "unplugged" concerts I described above. Still, the owner was displeased with us and complained that patrons were complaining about the music (not that it was too loud, but that they didn't want to hear it while they were having dinner). In this case, the fault is entirely the owner's for being unrealistic about his little experiment. He seemed reluctant to pay us and probably would have stiffed us if not for the performance agreement we waved at him that his manager signed.
3) The performance agreement we have covers a lot of potential problems that experienced gigging bands watch out for. For example: we stipulate that the venue needs to provide us with reliable power (120V, 1800W, 15A), protection from drunken idiots overly harassing us or coming up on stage and knocking over equipment (bouncer or at least manager needs to be proactive), deposit (usually $50 to at least cover out gas money should something happen to void the gig.) and that we get paid the balance in a reasonable time upon completion of our performance. We also stipulate that we typically play at A-weighted SPL's up to120 db using our own PA, but we include a provision to limit ourselves to whatever the venue thinks is appropriate if that's too loud. Usually the venue isn't interested in the actual SPL number (they don't understand it) but it provides an objective basis for us to discuss ahead of time how loud they want us. If they decide that they want us to play "quiet enough so that patrons can carry on conversations at normal levels 20 feet away", then we have to decide as a band if we want to play there.
If a venue objects to or gets scared off by such formality then that is a sure sign that playing the gig is just begging for problems and inevitably getting stiffed.
4) Don't try to make this an adversarial process between you and the venue. Too many bands think of themselves as awesome and talented musicians, who can do no wrong, and the venues as greedy and clueless idiots who should be jumping through hoops to have the band play there because they are so awesome and talented, regardless of the fact that patrons have all fled to the bar next door. You are supposed to help them by putting butts on barstools and they are supposed to help you, in turn, by putting green Benjamin Franklins in your pocket. Good communication, both oral and written, before, during and after the gig is essential to helping this process go smoothly with the desired outcome for both parties.
5) If you are stiffed by a venue when you have fulfilled your obligations and provided a proper performance, then absolutely go to small claims court. It will cost you about $30 in a single filing fee and you will be assigned an appearance date. NO lawyers are allowed on either side and you both take a few minutes to state your case and answer a few questions from the judge, and then he rules on whether or not the venue has to pay you. That's it.
6) I don't believe the OP has provided proper service according to the accepted standards of gigging bands. It could have been avoided if either the venue hadn't booked a band like that or if the band had done its homework and realized that this was likely to happen. Or if the band had the professional capacity to comply with the volume limitations.
IMO
1) Being asked to turn down by a venue is not a rare event. It happens all the time and it is a requirement of the musician's job that they accommodate this request to the satisfaction of the venue. On several occasions, we've had to actually turn off the PA and microphones, singing bare voiced into the crowd, have the drummer pull out a tambourine and maracas and the guitarist pull out his un-amplified acoustic while I turned my bass down to about 1% volume, all in order to satisfy the venue.
2) We don't like doing this so we (as professionals) make very clear up front that we are a rock band that plays at a certain volume and when we book our gigs we make sure to get a feel for the venue to try to weed out the inevitable clueless booking managers who have no ******* idea what they're getting into because all they know is that the owner of the bar/restaurant has just the previous week decided that having bands play will bring in lots of new customers so, "Start hiring some bands!" The last time we were the first one of those bands hired by a bar restaurant that wanted to do this and we found ourselves playing in the middle of a crowded restaurant, literally a few feet away from tables full of dinner patrons who were there to eat and not listen to a band. That was one of our "unplugged" concerts I described above. Still, the owner was displeased with us and complained that patrons were complaining about the music (not that it was too loud, but that they didn't want to hear it while they were having dinner). In this case, the fault is entirely the owner's for being unrealistic about his little experiment. He seemed reluctant to pay us and probably would have stiffed us if not for the performance agreement we waved at him that his manager signed.
3) The performance agreement we have covers a lot of potential problems that experienced gigging bands watch out for. For example: we stipulate that the venue needs to provide us with reliable power (120V, 1800W, 15A), protection from drunken idiots overly harassing us or coming up on stage and knocking over equipment (bouncer or at least manager needs to be proactive), deposit (usually $50 to at least cover out gas money should something happen to void the gig.) and that we get paid the balance in a reasonable time upon completion of our performance. We also stipulate that we typically play at A-weighted SPL's up to120 db using our own PA, but we include a provision to limit ourselves to whatever the venue thinks is appropriate if that's too loud. Usually the venue isn't interested in the actual SPL number (they don't understand it) but it provides an objective basis for us to discuss ahead of time how loud they want us. If they decide that they want us to play "quiet enough so that patrons can carry on conversations at normal levels 20 feet away", then we have to decide as a band if we want to play there.
If a venue objects to or gets scared off by such formality then that is a sure sign that playing the gig is just begging for problems and inevitably getting stiffed.
4) Don't try to make this an adversarial process between you and the venue. Too many bands think of themselves as awesome and talented musicians, who can do no wrong, and the venues as greedy and clueless idiots who should be jumping through hoops to have the band play there because they are so awesome and talented, regardless of the fact that patrons have all fled to the bar next door. You are supposed to help them by putting butts on barstools and they are supposed to help you, in turn, by putting green Benjamin Franklins in your pocket. Good communication, both oral and written, before, during and after the gig is essential to helping this process go smoothly with the desired outcome for both parties.
5) If you are stiffed by a venue when you have fulfilled your obligations and provided a proper performance, then absolutely go to small claims court. It will cost you about $30 in a single filing fee and you will be assigned an appearance date. NO lawyers are allowed on either side and you both take a few minutes to state your case and answer a few questions from the judge, and then he rules on whether or not the venue has to pay you. That's it.
6) I don't believe the OP has provided proper service according to the accepted standards of gigging bands. It could have been avoided if either the venue hadn't booked a band like that or if the band had done its homework and realized that this was likely to happen. Or if the band had the professional capacity to comply with the volume limitations.
IMO
That is ridiculous. There is no lowest level of the drums.
No, that too is ridiculous. It's based on you assuming your butt off. Describe the room acoustics. How big was the room? How close was the band to the bar? Was there a PA and if so, how loud was it? Etc.
I just played a room far larger than most bars where the unamplified sound of the drums could easily overpower the venue. Bottom line, you play to the room and the job. Most people who gig successfully understand that.
People get booked from promo packs and recommendations too. Maybe you go and hear every band you book live, that's not how everyone does it and that doesn't make you the only professional.
And since you brought up "professional", a professional should be able to control their volume. Shouldn't they? Dynamics is Performance 101
Again. The band's style (as quoted by the OP - unless *you're* calling him a liar ..!) was unsuitable for the venue. The music itself was not quiet. Wrong band, wrong venue.
You don't book a 'hip hop/reggae/rock/funk fusion' band to play in a venue where nothing can be heard over the drums (no matter how hard the drummer hits) - that would be stupid. Just like you don't book a death metal band and then expect them to play soft rock in a tiny room. That would also be stupid. You don't book a string quartet for a biker festival and ask them to play some Sabbath. That - no, actually that would be kind of cool.
That is not what the OP said. They were asked to turn down but because the drummer was a beater they had to match his volume...
which is not true. If the drummer is that clueless, leave him hanging out there sticking out like a sore thumb and maybe he'll get a clue. If he can't maintain his intensity... he's really not ready for gigs.
I've played "'hip hop/reggae/rock/funk fusion" in small rooms so that's nothing but an excuse. None of them have to be any louder than the other.
My experience is different. ANY louder than the rest musician can set stage volume. People assume it's the drummer, it could just as easily be the guitarist, bassists, keyboards, soundman...
And there most certainly is an equivalent to a volume knob on the drums... it's also known as the drummer. After all, despite what many seem to think, drums don't play themselves. They're actually extremely quiet when the drummer's not around.
- Jun 19, 2004
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- Endorsing Artist, Schroeder Cabinets
Was it Jim Lacefield who said, "Success is being able to say 'no' to Holiday Inn gigs"?
Sometimes you are too loud for the room; sometimes the room is too small for you. Not all professional musos have the mindset of it's-my-job-to-do-whatever-it-takes-to-make-the-clubowner-happy. In fact, in many cases, it's the opposite: The talent buyer has the mindset of it's-my-job-to-do-whatever-it-takes-to-make-the-band-and-their-crew-happy. Many pros I know couldn't care less what the size of the room is; their job is to play their parts, using dynamics as a part of musical expression, not as a means of controlling sound distribution. That's what PA systems are for, and the soundmen who run them. Let's face it, most bars are too small for a live rock band, even unmic'ed, at a reasonable volume. But many clubowners get this idea that they want live music, and hire a rock band, and then they get upset when it's really loud. What did you expect? If you want <100 dB in a 60x60 room, hire a solo singer/songwriter.
Now, I'm *not* saying you have to be a dick about it, and in fact, you certainly shouldn't. I will do what I can to work within the room I'm playing, of course, and would expect anybody I'm working with to do the same. I've played some venues with Plexiglass shields for the drumset, which is a workable compromise, or at least a good start. I even own a set of those myself, and I'm not even a drummer. They are just good to have around. But talent buyers need to more realistic about volume levels, too. If their space is relatively small, and they don't want it louder than x dB, they need to be upfront about this when hiring bands. Similarly, when a booking agent books a band, he needs to be upfront with the talent buyer about what the show will be like volume-wise, and not try to squeeze a loud-genre band into a tiny club.
Don't compromise what you do because you're in the wrong place. If you were a photographer specializing in weddings, and someone wanted to hire you to shoot his kid's soccer game, you'd say "I appreciate the offer, but I'm sorry; that's not what I do" and refer him to a sports photographer. What's different about playing music? Are you that desperate for gigs? If a talent buyer wants to hire your loud rock band to play a club more suited to a jazz trio, tell him so (graciously), and refer him to one. It's better to say no to a gig that's not right for you than to say yes and not only get stiffed for blowing the roof off the place, but also ruin your reputation by threatening to sue for payment, etc.
All that said, if your drummer *can't* play quietly, that's a problem in and of itself, and a sure sign he's not ready to be out there, gigging. You're making us *all* look bad, man!
As others have stated above, dynamic control is right up there with tempo, groove, etc when it comes to skill on the instrument. Don't confuse volume with intensity. That's just as bad as confusing tempo with intensity. They are all separate variables and any working drummer should be able to work well within all three dimensions.
In my humble opinion, a drummer (and all the musicians) should ideally play with dynamics as the *songs* dictate, and his band's booking agent should book rooms accordingly. Dynamics are a component of musical expression; volume is a component of sound reinforcement. They're not synonymous. One is within a musician's realm; the other isn't (but you should still be an adult about it).
Hope this helps.
Sometimes you are too loud for the room; sometimes the room is too small for you. Not all professional musos have the mindset of it's-my-job-to-do-whatever-it-takes-to-make-the-clubowner-happy. In fact, in many cases, it's the opposite: The talent buyer has the mindset of it's-my-job-to-do-whatever-it-takes-to-make-the-band-and-their-crew-happy. Many pros I know couldn't care less what the size of the room is; their job is to play their parts, using dynamics as a part of musical expression, not as a means of controlling sound distribution. That's what PA systems are for, and the soundmen who run them. Let's face it, most bars are too small for a live rock band, even unmic'ed, at a reasonable volume. But many clubowners get this idea that they want live music, and hire a rock band, and then they get upset when it's really loud. What did you expect? If you want <100 dB in a 60x60 room, hire a solo singer/songwriter.
Now, I'm *not* saying you have to be a dick about it, and in fact, you certainly shouldn't. I will do what I can to work within the room I'm playing, of course, and would expect anybody I'm working with to do the same. I've played some venues with Plexiglass shields for the drumset, which is a workable compromise, or at least a good start. I even own a set of those myself, and I'm not even a drummer. They are just good to have around. But talent buyers need to more realistic about volume levels, too. If their space is relatively small, and they don't want it louder than x dB, they need to be upfront about this when hiring bands. Similarly, when a booking agent books a band, he needs to be upfront with the talent buyer about what the show will be like volume-wise, and not try to squeeze a loud-genre band into a tiny club.
Don't compromise what you do because you're in the wrong place. If you were a photographer specializing in weddings, and someone wanted to hire you to shoot his kid's soccer game, you'd say "I appreciate the offer, but I'm sorry; that's not what I do" and refer him to a sports photographer. What's different about playing music? Are you that desperate for gigs? If a talent buyer wants to hire your loud rock band to play a club more suited to a jazz trio, tell him so (graciously), and refer him to one. It's better to say no to a gig that's not right for you than to say yes and not only get stiffed for blowing the roof off the place, but also ruin your reputation by threatening to sue for payment, etc.
All that said, if your drummer *can't* play quietly, that's a problem in and of itself, and a sure sign he's not ready to be out there, gigging. You're making us *all* look bad, man!
As others have stated above, dynamic control is right up there with tempo, groove, etc when it comes to skill on the instrument. Don't confuse volume with intensity. That's just as bad as confusing tempo with intensity. They are all separate variables and any working drummer should be able to work well within all three dimensions.In my humble opinion, a drummer (and all the musicians) should ideally play with dynamics as the *songs* dictate, and his band's booking agent should book rooms accordingly. Dynamics are a component of musical expression; volume is a component of sound reinforcement. They're not synonymous. One is within a musician's realm; the other isn't (but you should still be an adult about it).
Hope this helps.
probably will next post about not being able to get gigs anymore...
think you'll find the words already gone out between the local bar owners about them being too loud and driving customers away...
"In my humble opinion, a drummer (and all the musicians) should ideally play with dynamics as the *songs* dictate, and his band's booking agent should book rooms accordingly. Dynamics are a component of musical expression; volume is a component of sound reinforcement. They're not synonymous. One is within a musician's realm; the other isn't (but you should still be an adult about it)".
That's nice if they want to limit where they can work. One thing that I learned a long time ago is that you never know who might be listening. If you show yourself to be professional regardless of the situation it can only help.
Again, I can't count the number of gigs I've had where we had to start out quiet and as the show went on and the crowd got into it we ended up loud... sometimes louder than we normally would. We played the situation; the room, the management and the crowd. It really is as simple as asking this question: Who is paying whom?
As far as the components not being synonymous, that to me is a copout used by some folks. No offense. Both are within the musician's realm IME. A soundperson can't contain an out of control drummer or a guitarist whose majority of sound is not even coming through their system.
One more point: shouldn't a band make sure "they" can play in a venue before they take a gig? I don't get why some people think it's up to the venue to hire bands that "fit"... any band can fit any venue. Look at Danger Kitty... they went from playing arena rock to doing a backyard bar mitzvah. It's a gig, man.
That's nice if they want to limit where they can work. One thing that I learned a long time ago is that you never know who might be listening. If you show yourself to be professional regardless of the situation it can only help.
Again, I can't count the number of gigs I've had where we had to start out quiet and as the show went on and the crowd got into it we ended up loud... sometimes louder than we normally would. We played the situation; the room, the management and the crowd. It really is as simple as asking this question: Who is paying whom?
As far as the components not being synonymous, that to me is a copout used by some folks. No offense. Both are within the musician's realm IME. A soundperson can't contain an out of control drummer or a guitarist whose majority of sound is not even coming through their system.
One more point: shouldn't a band make sure "they" can play in a venue before they take a gig? I don't get why some people think it's up to the venue to hire bands that "fit"... any band can fit any venue. Look at Danger Kitty... they went from playing arena rock to doing a backyard bar mitzvah. It's a gig, man.
I'd make him pay, but on the other hand? His place, his rules. he has live music regularly? then he might know what loud is, you guys failed to comply. As far as legal action? For what? breach of contract?, you did have a contract? right? otherwise it was verbal? maybe a chance, but $350 is short of even a small claims deal. Take it as lesson learned and maybe reprogram your drummer. I hate when this happens but club owners are club owners and should be kept away from us players.Too bad you couldn't settle.
