bass and guitar combining notes to get a chord?

[SteveCS]

So what you are saying is that it is best to do when the guitar player plays root, 3rd, 5th and in that order? Because all of the different ways of playing an Fm that is in your example, they all consisted of F, Ab, C, and only that. Maybe not in that order, but... I'm just asking, not trying to cavil. I'm asking because I honestly don't know.

Fm is just that, F, Ab and C. Always has been and always will be. The inversion is dictated by the lowest note. F in the bass is Root position, Ab (3rd) in the bass is 1st inversion and C (5th) in the bass is second inversion. The order of notes above the bass does not change the inversion. In the case of 7th chords, a 3rd inversion is possible.

 

[TheSlug]

Fm is just that, F, Ab and C. Always has been and always will be. The inversion is dictated by the lowest note. F in the bass is Root position, Ab (3rd) in the bass is 1st inversion and C (5th) in the bass is second inversion. The order of notes above the bass does not change the inversion. In the case of 7th chords, a 3rd inversion is possible.

I never asked about inversions. I know how that works.

 

[TheSlug]

N.B. In tonal harmony, the chords have functions.

1. The guitar plays - C3(R) E3(3rd) G3(5th)
and
the bass guitar plays A2,
then you will have Am7 chord.

2.The guitar plays - E3(3rd) G3(5th) B3(maj7)
and
the bass guitar plays C2,
then you will have Cmaj7 chord.
You can notate it as Em/C if you like it.

but...

3.If the guitar plays - E3(3rd) G3(5th) B3(maj7)
and
the bass guitar plays E2,
is it going to be Cmaj7 first inversion?

What do you think?

Here is a Chord Identification Table from an article,
"Definitions of "Chord" in the Teaching of Tonal Harmony"

Invalid Link Removed



View attachment 1074248

Looking at it in a straight forward way, which I think we should when looking at chords, an Em played with an E on the bass, Doesn't make it a Cmaj7 first inversion. A chord, is a chord no matter how you choose to use it. Otherwise there would be no point in naming chords. You could go deep, and say "but if the singer sings this melody, the chord is basically a Cmaj7." To me, that is a flawed logic. I would much rather say "I chose to hold an Em because of it's tones sounded good to the melody"
I think we are side-tracking a bit here. I am much more interested in knowing about your opinion on different timbre for producing these chords. When a guitar player holds a bar-chord triad, he is almost always playing R, 5th, R, 3rd, 5th, (R); will the way he plays it (like a standard bar-chord), make it possible for me as a bass player to make that chord the parallel minor7 (If it's a major), or will it sound like I played the wrong note?
If it will sound like I played the wrong note, was it because of the difference in sound between these two instruments, or because of the orders the notes on the guitar were?

 

[SteveCS]

...
When a guitar player holds a bar-chord triad, he is almost always playing R, 5th, R, 3rd, 5th, (R); will the way he plays it (like a standard bar-chord), make it possible for me as a bass player to make that chord the parallel minor7 (If it's a major), or will it sound like I played the wrong note?
If it will sound like I played the wrong note, was it because of the difference in sound between these two instruments, or because of the orders the notes on the guitar were?

Parallel Minor, no, but relative minor 7, for example bass plays A below C Major? Yes, that would be Am7

 

[SteveCS]

I never asked about inversions. I know how that works.

Surprising, given that you seemed knocked out to discover from @Whousedtoplay that the notes making up an Fm chord are only and always F, Ab and C.
It seemed to me that inversions was a fundamental dimension of your question.

 

[TheSlug]

Surprising, given that you seemed knocked out to discover from @Whousedtoplay that the notes making up an Fm chord are only and always F, Ab and C.
It seemed to me that inversions was a fundamental dimension of your question.

Sorry for bumping. I wasn't knocked out, I knew (after this, I guess it's thought I knew) what an Fm consists of, but it didn't seem like inversions had anything to do with how the chord would be if the bass tried "creating" a new chord out of that Fm. Didn't mean to be rude. Sorry it came out like that.
Now @Whousedtoplay shows me other ways of playing chords I can't for the life of me understand is the stated chord. A Cmajor consisting of only E, B and D? To me, that is like an undefined E7, could be minor, could be dominant. Bet we could get away with it being any of those chords in punk rock since power chords doesn't define major and minor either.
I am more confused than before I started the thread.

 

[ElectroVibe]

Trust your ears. If the guitar is not playing all of the notes, then I don't think it will sound like a chord as if one instrument was playing the more complex chord. Yes, *technically* it is supposed to be a new chord, but that's not really how it sounds.

 

[SteveCS]

Let's move further.
Here is a C major chord voicing recommendation for the beginner jazz piano player.
View attachment 1074274

It's C Jim, but not as we know it. I don't think I could even get my Stick to make that sound like C Major.

 

[HandsFree]

The band I'm in does this sometimes.
In my experience it works well, IF the guitarist only uses the higher 4 strings. Then there is enough room for the bass to play another note that will be the root, like in the F/D exemple.

If the guitarist uses the lower strings, it will usually sound like mud.

 

[SteveCS]

Now, we all have learned the importance of the root in the bass.

For those who want to take a beginner course of C major scale, we have a lot of TB members ready to help and show the C major scale notes on the fretboard.

In you example ending on Cmaj7 (but not as we know it) your voicing, ascending, is BEADG. In my book(?), CMaj7 includes CEGB, so the A and D have no place other than decoration. But...
Arranged as stacked 3rds, the derived chord name for those notes could be G13, G6+9, Em7+11 or even Bm7+13.
Yes it contains the E, G and B from CMaj7, but even with a low C to frame it the internal tension and therefore aural function is anything but CMaj7, serving, to my ears at least, rather better as a dominant than tonic chord, even without the F normally found in V7.
The OP (@TheSlug) says he is more confused now than at the start. Quite frankly, wrt the original question, so am I, even though I've probably just made matters worse!

 

[SteveCS]

Sorry, sorry, sorry, ...
My "bad".
It's a wrong class. It happens to me with my age.

Here is the correct material for the beginners: drool

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Maybe too far the other way? My take is this...
Putting inversions to one side, normal chord building, ie identifying the notes of a chord regardless of voicing, is most commonly achieved by stacking thirds ascending, where the chord name remains a variant of the underlying triad name. The question as I see it is what happens when you insert 3rds below the chord, for example C > Am7 > FMaj7+9 (or possibly sus2) > Dm7+11 etc...
Once we've stopped adding thirds below, how about other diatonic intervals or chromatics? At what point does it just become a walking bass?

 

[SteveCS]

P.S. Comic relief.
From "Piano Chord Voicings for jazz combo":

View attachment 1075532

...

By any standard or definition, much if not all of the character of FMaj7 comes from the E natural. I don't see one. Likewise, what are the D and G doing there? I guess if we go on adding 4ths below or 5th above the requisite notes will appear but they surely will be indistinguishable from the cacophony that surrounds them?

 

[Bob_Ross]

Once we've stopped adding thirds below, how about other diatonic intervals or chromatics? At what point does it just become a walking bass?

At the point when those notes are not heard as momentary passing notes in a line, but actually last long enough to impact the listener's perception of the harmony.